Angel issue

[fanch313]

I bought a 4" Koi angelfish almost a month ago as a companion to a black angel I rescued out of a tank with a firemouth, 2 JD, 3 GT and 3 Silverdollars.
I moved the black into a 40g established tank and about three weeks later brought home its tankmate.

Everything seemed to be going great: water quality, eating habits, they were both very active. About 5 days ago the koi stoped eating. The only thing that I have seen it consume is about 3 brine shrimp. What is happening?...what can I do to help?...what am I doing wrong? :(

Please Help! thanks in advance for the advice!
:help:

[boofish2]

Do you think something may have happened 5 days ago to trigger this eating strike? Did you notice any aggressive behavior toward the new angel? From what I've rea, it's not uncommon for Angels to refuse food. Try varying their diet. They love live food, or try some brine shrimp. Sometimes coaxing them with a special treat is all you need. I got my two angels together and one was very outgoing, eating, swimming around. It took the othe 5 days to even come out of hiding!!! He just must've gotten spooked by something or just had a shy disposition. Now, however, the second he sees me he comes out and "dances" around -- he's actually more aggressive then the other one!! I'd say, let the new guy settle in a bit and try some yummy treats... HTH Good Luck!!

[TKOS]

Soaking food in garlic can often get a fish to eat. Worth a try. Also I wouldn't be surprised if the other angel was bullying and stressing him.

[Star_Rider]

what is in the diet currently?

is the koi exhibiting any other Symptoms?(hiding, darkening?)

I can tell you from experience that angels can go a long time without eating. however, something is usually the cause of not eating.

have you seen the koi take food in and spit it out?

[fanch313]

I have been feeding flakes as a staple...brine shrimp as a treat. The koi did eat a couple of brine shrimp once, but not the last time I offered it. What diet do you prefer for angels??

The other fish does not seem to be picking in the koi at all, but it could be while I'm at work. And the koi does seem to be more resurved than the other. I was worried about stress for them so they are in a very quiet room.

star_rider: it has taken food and spit it out...what does this mean? Does it no longer prefer the food? What do you suggest?

One more question: how long can it go without eating before I should be really worried? Thanks for all the replies!!

[TwoTankAmin]

Is the fish pooping? If not it may be constipated. If so treating the tank with epsom salts should help. However, there can be disease related causes for constitpation which would require medication.

To treat with Epsom (available at any pharmacy) dose 1 tablespoon/10gals of water. Disolve it in a big cup of tank water to administer.

[fanch313]

I haven't noticed. :huh:

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check when I get home!

[Star_Rider]

I have a large male marble that went 4 weeks without eating..he lost wt but he is eating..
a couple possiblities at this point.

takes in food the spits it out two things I can think of that cause this.

mine did this ..I found a parasite infestation. I did a bunch of research. I found that internal parasites can cause irritation of the digestive tract. one of the reasons it is assumed, that they spit out food.

also bacterial infection. (internal)

have you seen any passing of waste(poo)?

if it is white stringy and slimey..I'd start looking at parasites.

also have you noticed anything protruding from the anus? cammilanus tend to show up as thing red strings. I saw them at night whant the fish was relaxed.

two common parasites in cichlids(angels) camillanus and capilaria(hard to detect)

luckily many of the parasite treatments are not too hard on the fish..if it's not eating you simply dose the water.

jungle parasite clear has prazi and metro..if the fish start eating again you can use anti parasite meds (levmisole, prazi and metro)

I dose my new fish in quarantine especially any wilds I get

[dorris]

There is one other option which no one has said yet. This happened to me. I had a pair of angels and a younger lone female. The lone female was always a fairly aggressive angel even at a smaller size would stand up to the large pair and often win. I wanted to get it a mate and brought home a fish of roughly the same size and nature. This fish turned out to be more of a bully than the lone female and went on a real rampage and bullied the whole tank around. I figured out also that the angry fish was also a female after a few days. Before I did though my original lone female had stopped eating completely where as before she ate everything and ruled the tank and now some other nobody had taken over. She got depressed. Her mate was not what I was after and I quickly took the angry killer back and the loner started eating again and everything went back to normal. There are all sorts of reasons for fish going off their food. Introducing a fish into a new environment can do anything to them. The increase in ammonias, nitrates etc. can increase the amount of bacterias in the water and extra water changes are advisable when introducing new fish to a tank. After the quarantine if you have the room for that. My angels like to eat worms also. Bloodworms or tubiflex. Frozen worms are great and live are better. I'd probably start with some daily water changes and perhaps add some worms to their diet and see if he doesn't turn around. They could just be the same sex though. If you have room maybe add another and try and make it the opposite sex. Good luck with it all.

[fanch313]

Thanks for the advice!!

star_rider: I was watching the koi yesterday for a little while and did notice he had whitish stringy poo...so I think I'll dose the tank in case it is a bacterial infection. I did quarentine the fish for 2 weeks and everything was good...is there and incubation period for the parasites or do you think that the koi got whatever it has from our tanks?? Thanks!

dorris: How do you sex angels? I would love to have a pair of them, but have no idea how to tell the difference and according to some it almost impossible. I don't have the room in the tank to group pair them (and at $17 each I don't have the funds either), but I geuss I could get one or two more, but then what...I only have the angels because we rescued the black and my husband (and I geuss I did too) fell in love with him (or her) and now we really like to koi as well. I have a 40g with them and a SAE in there now, how many more would you consider before they would be overloading my biology? Thanks for your advice.

Thanks everyone!!

[dorris]

You could fit 3 or 4 in there ok. Is there any other fish or just the 2 angels and the sae? If you have the algae eater Im guessing you've got some plants in there which is a good thing for your fish.

Angelfish breeders can sex them really well. I am not the best but can usually get away with it. It is hard to sex young angels though, that is nearly impossible. But if they are $17 they must be fairly large and you should be able to tell. Basically females have a wider fatter belly where their eggs are being created. Males will obviously have a more slender tummy. But then a female is fairly slender right after spawning so unless you have had the fish for a month you can't know for sure just by using that method. There are other slight differences that are very hard to recognise and even harder to describe.

Hope this has helped.

[fanch313]

Thanks, I'll check it out (and pray that I have a male and female.)

They are the only fish besides the SAE. Do you think they need to be paired? Could two females live happily with eachother, and viceversa? I definatly want them to be happy, but with four other tanks and MANY other animals I'm not sure if I want to get too many more. What do you think?

[dorris]

I dunno, most fish prefer to be in schools really. The more the merrier sort of thing. But I do believe that two females could live happily together I guess. I think it just depends on the fish. Each fish has a different personality and unless you try you just don't know if they can get a long or not. But you should be able to tell within the first week or two wether it's going to work out or not. Has your koi eaten anything yet? How is he or she now? If the black one is beating on the koi then you may have to either get another one to spread the hostility or swap the koi for another angel at the shop where you got it. You'll have to ask them first though of course. Good luck with it.

[Star_Rider]

sorry I didn't post sooner.

white stingy poo, eating and spitting out.could point to bacterial..but just in case..watch for internal parasites..lately there has been a rash of camillanus and capillaria infestations especially in angels.
in any case it might be prudent to treat the tank for parasites..the med themselves are best when they can be taken internally. I treat all my new fish with meds to remove parasites.(just ran my peruvian scalare thru this)

if you can get them to mouth the food try jungle anit parasite food..it has metro, prazi and levamisole in it. it is large pellets I grind them and add bloodworms..let them set for some time and absorb the meds..

if this doesn't work you can add meds directly to the water..enough wil be absorbed that it will allow you to get the upperhand on the parasite.

now when it comes to sexing angels..even top breeders will tell you..it is nearly impossible and there are few differences between males and femals..the onlysure method is they they spawn..look at the ovipositor..the female has a short thick breeding tube..the males noticably thinner and longer.

the best way to get breeding pairs is to raise young angels together. tho you can add fish and they will pair up at later times.

[fanch313]

Thanks!
I haven't been able to get the koi to eat yet, so I'm treating the water directly. The black has not shown any aggression toward the koi at all and everything in the tank is peaceful so I think I'm just going to leave the whole setup alone...I'm not that interested in breeding anyway (my convicts do enough of that!) I've tried giving them bloodworms, tubaflex worms and brine shrimp and while the black thinks he's in heaven, the koi has had only remote interest in an algea waffer I put in the tank for the SAE! The koi still looks good so I'm not too worried about her.
I'll keep you posted after a few more days of meds!
Thanks for all the help!

[dorris]

Maybe the koi just wants some vegies. I feed my fish vegies(flake or pellet foods) for breakfast and worms for tea. Probably is an internal bacteria thing though. Was the fish eating to begin with very much when you first got it?

I can tell when my angels get to a certain size if they are female. They have to be nearing their first spawn to tell though because the female's belly will get wider from the eggs being produced and take on a shape that a male will not no matter how much you feed him. That's the easiest way I know how. Works for me.

[fanch313]

I'll look into that.

The koi was eating well for probably 3 weeks, and then one day just stopped.

**Update**
I have treated the tank according to the directions and have had no signs of stringy or whitish poo...but she's still not eating :confused: The black is eating like a pig and regrowing his fins very nicely. I have also tried switching foods (sinking crisps, veggie sticks, blood worms, different flakes) nothing has worked so far. Maybe soon without the parasites she will start eating again (if not I fear I'm going to loose her :(

[Star_Rider]

if the angel was eating healthy it should be okay for quite some time as long as it doesn't have any infections.

I had a marble koi went 4 weeks with no eating..he's still around and spawning with a leopard.

it takes a few days for the meds to work if it was internal parasites..I actually had to treat the tank twice.

if it's not eatign you may not see any poo..and not all parasites are visible. angles have recently been plagued by camillanus(visible in some fish as red appendages that protrude from the anus) and capillaria(not visible).

I had 6 angels that I treated over the course of several weeks.

of those only one had visible red worms..the others all passed white worms(dead) within a week of the second treatment..I had a re-infestation within 1 month..I learned that it is best to treat and re treat the tank within 3 weeks of the intial treatment.

of the 6 angels treated only 1 passed (I discovered it was unable to pass the worms..as a result the worm decomposed in the angel and the angel had picked up an internal bacterial infection)

I also discovered that the parasite treatments are not very intrusive to the fish(they get a little uncomfortable) but now treat all new fish with anti parasite food and meds.

[jm1212]

its good to hear that your angle is eating again :)
but im sorry that you lost one :(

[fanch313]

I went camping for the weekend and came back to find that the koi is HUGE!! it looks like SHE is going to lay a batch any day!! My husband says she still hasn't eaten while he has been watching, but would she be getting food if she is spawning? Would the meds for parasites hurt the eggs/fry from what I treated thus far and if I retreat in three weeks? What a bitter-sweet blessing!

[Star_Rider]

wow, my angels feed when they spawn..the females don't eat as much .

is there a male?/ keep an eye out if she's carrying eggs she should be showing a bit of her ovipositor soon.
is she cleaning a spawn site? leaves ir a verticle surface?

[dorris]

Funny thing. I recantly moved my two smaller angels into my new tank along with the rest of my fish, gradually, and left my breeding pair in the old tank alone who are now happily raising a brood of wrigglers. The thing is though, one of the two smaller angels who use to be the biggest boss of a pig has gone off it's food since being in the new tank, and I dunno why. Her aggression has gone and she has probably one small mouth full of food per day. I went away for the weekend and she was about to burst before I left and when I got back she was a skinny little goose and wouldn't eat. I don't know if she is just depressed about losing a batch of eggs, or maybe she misses the company of my breeding pair, or it's just the new tank, or maybe she just summoned some internal bacteria out of nowhere. It was just so sudden. I will just have to wait and see otherwise I may have to treat her in a week or so for something. I hope not. I have had fish who have just stopped eating and died for apparently no reason before. I hope it doesn't happen here because this is my g/f's fish.

[fanch313]

I assume the other is a male now...they are swimming around like they're taped together (he won't leave her side) and I saw him cleaning a piece of slate last night. This morning when I was racing around the house getting ready for work I "caught" her eating a few flakes!! There was only a few in there (I've cut back the amount of food I put in there because she hasn't been eating) So maybe this is the end to the long worry...maybe she will eat and maybe our house will be blessed with a fry batch!! I guess it's too early to tell. Is there anything I should do special for the tank if she is going to lay a batch?? Temps...w/c...special diet....etc?

Thanks so much for being here during this time with your advice and company...you guys are the best!

[dorris]

Thank goodness my g/f's angel has got her apetite back. She started eating again yesterday and hasn't looked back. Must have gotten over her depression.

How are yours going Fanch?

My breeding pair are happily raising their babies in my 30G. To get yours ready for spawning you should feed them lots, so you will have to watch them to make sure they are willing to eat everything you feed them. A mixture is best, lots of bloodworms and flakes, what ever u have. If you have a sae in there I would remove it if u do want to spawn your angels. I dont trust those sly sae's. I have one, use to have two but I got rid of the more ferocious one, cos they just have an attitude, like they dont care what anyone thinks, they are not afraid of any fish. Thats my opinion anyway.

The hardest part I find is raising the fry. This is my 4th spawning from my pair and I have the chance to let them raise their own young and they are doing a great job, so protective and parental. The first 3 times I removed the eggs and tried to raise them myself. It is very hard though if you are not prepared. You realy need to hatch out brine shrimp and feed the fry baby brine shrimps. This time I have got some bbs in action and I also use a blood worm soup(blended frozen blood worms, to liquid form) when I don't have the shrimp on hand that someone else suggested on the boards here. The thing is the fry realy need to be fed 3-4 times per day which can be a hassle. I guess brine shrimp can live for 5hrs in fresh water so you can feed them in the morning a big feed and then as soon as u get home from work and then again after tea. So long as they always have full stomaches they should be fine. Algae can b a real bonus too. Fry love to eat algae so I would ditch you sae if u realy want to raise some angels. Keep in mind thought that most angels will eat their eggs or fry in the first spawn and it might take a few before they get the hang of it.

Good luck to us both.