CO2 Questions (new setup)

[thadius65]

Folks,

Have been doing some reading here and other places on CO2 and I must admit I am somewhat confused. I have just ordered what I think/thought to be all I needed and want to get your take on it:

Milwaukee Regualator w/Solenoid
Milwaukee SMS122 PH/Co2 Controller

My thoughts were to connect CO2 up to silicon tubing and run to a Rena Micro-Bubbler 4" ceramic setup just under my spray bar configuration. The spray bar will be about 3/4 of the way down my 125 gallon tank pointing down, but slightly outward. It is about two feet and feed on one side by a Fluval 304 and the other by a 404 (center of the spray bar is capped). The thought is that the micro bubbles would come out of the micro-bubbler and be pushed down and about the aquarium. This position would also decrease any surface agitation.

In regards to settings, is it as simple (I highly doubt it) as me setting the SMS122 to a PH of 6.0 - 6.5 and let it be? Or do I need to get a CO2 measurement. I know they CO2 and PH are linked, but confused as to how.

Thoughts were to run through the day on a timer and have it shut off at end of cycle. The CO2 injection to then be replaced by O2 from air pump at night cycle only.

How far off am I? Thoughts ?

Oh, my fish are: Clown Loaches, Angelicus Loaches, Cardinal Tetras, Rummy Nose Tetras, Silver Angels and Pleco along with live plants. Lighting is currently 2WPG and soon to be 3WPG with VHO/IceCap setup.

Thanks,

Ted

[djlen]

Sounds like you should be all set.
Now go here: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm
Download Chuck's calculator to your desktop where it will be handy for checking on nutrient dosages later and CO2 ppm now.
The CO2 content is based on the relationship of your kH to your pH.
BTW, you should make sure you have a kH of no less than 3.0°kH as a buffer to be safe for the fish. I've never used a ph/CO2 controller but I would suggest you set it at no lower than 7.0°pH and then test every 2 hours to see what kind of pH you are receiving. Once you determine how accurate the 'controller' is you will have a better idea of how to adjust. Do everything in small increments (by testing for pH) until you have no more than 20 ppm/CO2 at lights out. At that time your solenoid should turn the gas off. The bubbles/mist will not stop immediately when the gas is turned off. It typically takes a few minutes for what's in the line to be pulled through the reactor.
When the gas is turned off at night there is no reason to run O2 into the tank. There will be plenty of O2 in the water table for the fish. I ran my gas 24/7 for years without running O2 at night. Just no necessary, IMO.
Check your pH in the morning and it should have risen a couple of tenths over night while the gas was off. This is normal and not harmful to the fish. One of the reasons I frown on injecting O2 at night is that it will drive off the accumulated gas and the result will be more of a pH swing over night which is more stressful to the fish.
Then keep checking pH and adjusting CO2 flow during the next day until you find what your controller is giving you.
I would not leave it up to the controller to determine ppm, but rather keep checking pH and make sure you stay within safe CO2 limits based on the kH/pH relationship for a few weeks to be sure of the reliability of the unit. As you can see, I'm not very trusting of equipment until it shows me it's consistent and reliable. The fish come first, IMO.
I hope this is clear to you. It's really not as complicated as it seems initially.

Len

[thadius65]

Thanks for the info.

I downloaded Chuck's calculator. Plugged in the following variables:

PH - 6.4 (due to use of peat in filter)
KH - 36

It reads that my CO2 is 24ppm and good. I am not adding any CO2 yet, but I have been adding Flourish Excel in the interim. This is a carbon additive, correct? Is this what is causing these numbers? GH is 53.7 for what that is worth.

So, will CO2 do me any good? Man I am really sorry for saying/asking such dumb questions. I just am having trouble grasping this whole topic so far. I will continue to read links provided.

Thanks,

Ted

[djlen]

Don't inject any gas until you get your kH over 3.5°kH. Right now it is too low at 2°kH to buffer the water and protect the fish. Pick up some crushed coral at the LFS and put some in a nylon filter bag and into a filter. This will begin to buffer the water in a week or two.
I'm not sure that your numbers are correct. I would get your water tested at the LFS as well. If you take tap water let it sit on the counter and gas off for a couple of hours before testing. Tank water should be tested immediately after filling the vials. Have the LFS test for kH, gH, pH, phosphates and nitrates to double check against the numbers you've found at home. Tap water is important to know because it's your source water and every time you change water you re-fill with it.
Excel will cost you a fortune in a 125 gal. tank. If you intend to use a carbon source, pressurized would be the way to go, but there's no hurry and you really need to get that kH up before doing any injecting.

The questions are not dumb. They are the way we all learned and you will be advising people down the road, once you learn the ropes. :):)

Len

[thadius65]

Len,

Thanks for the info. The testing was at the LFS and then at home. The test that was used in both situation was aquarium pharm product, which is the 5ml bottle, one drop and then subsequent drops. very tedious and i got the same results as they did. PH is accurate, but I am not confident in the testing for KH. My guess is that it is very low, hence difficulty reading the test. I will get some coral.

THanks,!

Ted

[fresh_newby]

Don't inject any gas until you get your kH over 3.5°kH. Right now it is too low at 2°kH to buffer the water and protect the fish. Pick up some crushed coral at the LFS and put some in a nylon filter bag and into a filter. This will begin to buffer the water in a week or two.
I'm not sure that your numbers are correct. I would get your water tested at the LFS as well. If you take tap water let it sit on the counter and gas off for a couple of hours before testing. Tank water should be tested immediately after filling the vials. Have the LFS test for kH, gH, pH, phosphates and nitrates to double check against the numbers you've found at home. Tap water is important to know because it's your source water and every time you change water you re-fill with it.
Excel will cost you a fortune in a 125 gal. tank. If you intend to use a carbon source, pressurized would be the way to go, but there's no hurry and you really need to get that kH up before doing any injecting.

The questions are not dumb. They are the way we all learned and you will be advising people down the road, once you learn the ropes. :):)

Len
I disagree whole heartedly.
I have run my pH from 5.8 to 6.2 with a KH of 2 and pressurized CO2, since March. No problems and crazy plant growth. That is a myth...pH crashes and the like. If you KH is around to as mine is as it comes out of my tap, it is fine. I use a pH controller and pressurized tank with an Aqua Medic reactor as well. Don't be afraid of low KH and low pH...it is your friend. The plants absolutely love it, and happy plants are happy fish!

[fresh_newby]

Len,

Thanks for the info. The testing was at the LFS and then at home. The test that was used in both situation was aquarium pharm product, which is the 5ml bottle, one drop and then subsequent drops. very tedious and i got the same results as they did. PH is accurate, but I am not confident in the testing for KH. My guess is that it is very low, hence difficulty reading the test. I will get some coral.

THanks,!

Ted
I would not do the coral thing!
That is what will cause issues. There is NO quatitative way to deliver Ca++ or Mg++ in this manner so it is out of control. I strongly disagree with this method. There os NO REASON why you have to mess with the water chemistry as long as your KH is 2 or so. Get a good KH/GH test kit and test it. 2 or more is FINE. Your plants will grow better! I grow hard to grow plants because they love this low KH and it is NOT harmful for your fish to be in a lower pH....MYTH If your plants are happy and you don't go over say about 30ppm CO2, your fish will be fine! Run an airstone at night or put your CO2 on a timer to turn off when lights go out. Do not start playing mad scientist with your water. Trust me on this. If you feel the need to play with your kh, use baking soda, NOT coral in your planted tank, but honestly you should not touch it. Be happy your kh is so low. Many others have high KH out of the tap and wish they had such a low KH to deal with. We discussed this and created real life experimentation with great results. Take a look at this thread to start, but realize...just because people did it that way in the past, doesn't maek it the way to go. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/32365-low-no-kh-low-ph-without.html?highlight=crash
Presently, I have a fast-growing plant farm...KH of 2, pH of 5.9-6.2, and even my 10 otos, considered sensitive fish, have been happy and busy since March when I put them in. My little guys have no complaints and my plants, well, I just donated another 40 bags worth of different species to my local Aquarium club, so take this advice if you so choose.

[djlen]

fish newby - Be very careful about the information you dispense when you know little about what you speak.
It is fact that without proper buffer, CO2 injection can cause the pH to crash. The commonly held theory on 'proper' in this case is 3.0 - 3.5°kH.
Just because you have had no issues with yours does not change the fact that not taking precautions can/will lead to heart breaking results over lost fish. I've seen it happen and I've spoken to many, many people over the years who started to inject without buffering up their water.
The kH of the water has little affect on the growth of plants. Mine have grown well at 3.5°kH for years and are now growing just as well or better at 6 - 9°kH (depending on the tank in question).
The fact that you suggest baking soda as an alternative to coral just points up how uninformed you are on this topic. Baking soda will buffer kH, but within 24 hours it's affect weakens and the kH once again reverts to form. Coral, while taking longer to act is a much more stable way of holding kH at a higher level more consistently.

Len

[thadius65]

I know the Peat I use lowers the ph and softens the water, but is that a GH softening, or a KH... or both?

I am using peat for lowered ph and that tanins it puts off in the water. I like the amazon black water look.

Let me know.

Thanks,

Ted

[loaches r cool]

PH - 6.4 (due to use of peat in filter)
KH - 36

It reads that my CO2 is 24ppm and good. I am not adding any CO2 yet, but I have been adding Flourish Excel in the interim. This is a carbon additive, correct? Is this what is causing these numbers? GH is 53.7 for what that is worth.

Normal water typically containes only a couple ppm of CO2, I dont beleive it will ever naturally rise above 5ppm but dont quote me on that one. It has also been said that Excel will not effect CO2 readings so something is definately off if you getting 24ppm. Also, make sure when you taking readings and punching numbers into calculators that you are using the right units. For example most all tests will be in either ppm or degrees. If you enter a KH value of 36 degrees when it should have been 36ppm that will make a huge difference just for example. Many things can effect your readings though, I am not the expert there, but things like phosphate buffers for example will skew the values and make the ph/kh chart invalid as-is. Basically the ph/kh chart will only work under very ideal controlled conditions. There are ways around these problems, but to complicated for me to remember off hand.

As for the low/no KH that is an interesting idea... I'll have to read more into this. But so far what I have read suggests that special attention be given to exactly what all inhabits the tank since not just everything can be placed under those conditions. If this all were true, I would still have to say its not for everyone so be carefull who suggest that this way is the only way and anything else is rediculous. As for the crushed coral I do beleive that is a proven method, not to say its required, but havent heard anything bad about it until now. I use baking soda myself, because its easy and I havent tried asking for crushed coral yet at any lfs's. But perhaps if there is truth to this low KH idea then I might consider gradually reducing my added baking soda and see what happens.

[thadius65]

Hmmm.. Just found this:

http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html

"Understand that decorations such as driftwood, bogwood, limestone, filtering with peat, etc. will affect the kH and pH of the aquarium"

Now everyone has an opionion, so I will review more information on that. I rotate 2-3 pouches of peat per month in my fluvals. PH is 6.4 and where I want it, but if it is affecting KH, then I will use CO2 to do so and just bag the black water look I guess...

AND... right from the web site (the product I use):

"Fluval Peat Granular is a select granular peat ideal for use in freshwater aquariums. This concentrated, safe, natural filter media provides optimal water conditions for many species of fish originating from specific tropical environments. Many species of fish can benefit from the compounds found in Fluval Peat Granular. Examples include species of South American Cichlids (Angelfish, Discus, Apistogramma etc.), Corydoras Catfish, Tetras, Gouramis and Barbs. Fluval Peat Granular releases beneficial elements and will contribute to vibrant colors, enhanced breeding success, and superior conditions for a variety of fish species that thrive in soft acidic water. It is recommended to verify the desired pH and KH levels by testing with Nutrafin pH and KH test kits on a regular basis. Fluval Peat Granular is a concentrated filter media and will initially reduce pH and KH levels at a quicker rate than fibrous peat. The recommended KH range is 50 to 120 mg/L (approx. 3 to 7 dKH to support safe, stable pH levels) for proper maintenance of certain species of fish. Use Nutrafin pH Stabilizer for superior results in maintaining an optimal KH value. The replacement of Fluval Peat Granular media is determined by testing and the diminishing effect it has on pH and KH levels."

Guess I should pay more attention....

Thanks,
Ted

[DeputyChiefJR]

Quick piece of advice with the milwaulkee regulator and solenoid (since i have one and almost overdosed my fish using it) you'll need to teflon tape the bubble counter, it'll lose gas and the pressure you need to get the air into the tank and past a check valve will be more CO2 than you want to use...

[fresh_newby]

You be careful about the same old falsehoods you perpetuate. Don't let my name fool you. I keep a heavily planted high tech tank and I am a 40 year old scientist.
We ran a carefully controlled study with reproducability. A lot of you may be used to spewing out the same old info to people, but there is no way a hobby can progress that way. Truth of the matter is...KH of 2 is GREAT! you do not need to bicarb the water to stabilize PH. PH has less of a room for error, true but it will not "crash" as people like to spew. Why don't you give me your definition of pH crash and how you think it comes about.


You quoted plants grow regardless of kh??? hahahaha WRONG
many species require a lower KH Tonina Belem, prime example.

Coral over Baking soda??? Again WRONG!!!!
Coral is not a quantitative system. You throw a bunch in a bag and stick it in your filter and think you are doing the right thing??> WRONG AGAIN

I am not normally this caustic, but when you start your commentary with this condescending attitude when you have no idea what caliber of person you are talking to, nor the protocol we followed to come to these conclusions...this makes me think you are the one in question.

If you need to raise the kH of your water then you can use plain old baking soda, not baking powder but baking soda. One teaspoon of baking soda will increase the kH of 50 liters of water (13 gallons) by 4 degrees (68 ppm)


To sum it up.

To raise kH use baking soda. One teaspoon will increase the kH of 50 liters of water (13 gallons) by 4 degrees (68 ppm).

To raise gH use calcium chloride and Epsom salts. Add them separately or you will end up with calcium sulfate which takes a very long time to dissolve.

0.79 grams of calcium chloride and 0.33 grams of Epsom salts will raise 10 gallons of water 1° of gH.

But know this....with a kh of 2-3 YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO THIS!



fish newby - Be very careful about the information you dispense when you know little about what you speak.
It is fact that without proper buffer, CO2 injection can cause the pH to crash. The commonly held theory on 'proper' in this case is 3.0 - 3.5°kH.
Just because you have had no issues with yours does not change the fact that not taking precautions can/will lead to heart breaking results over lost fish. I've seen it happen and I've spoken to many, many people over the years who started to inject without buffering up their water.
The kH of the water has little affect on the growth of plants. Mine have grown well at 3.5°kH for years and are now growing just as well or better at 6 - 9°kH (depending on the tank in question).
The fact that you suggest baking soda as an alternative to coral just points up how uninformed you are on this topic. Baking soda will buffer kH, but within 24 hours it's affect weakens and the kH once again reverts to form. Coral, while taking longer to act is a much more stable way of holding kH at a higher level more consistently.

Len

[fresh_newby]

You can either take my advice, as it is great advice for an alternative, or you can choose not to, but understand this. You will not get any informed contribution to this forum with this type of dismissive behavior IMO. This topic has been argued and proven and recreated and concluded over the past year, so get with the program.

[fresh_newby]

here is a couple quotes from some colleagues...



I got good results with 100% Ro water and CO2 - I had < 1 kH and pH 5.3 - fish, shrimps and plants were happy happy.

And using Crushed coral just means that you stress the heck out of your fish, when TDS changes all the time...

Kh/pH changes are no problems for fishs, but gH changes are a killer.

Have you ever seen a couple of angelfish go from 1 gH to 18 gH doing a waterchange. They flip horisonticaly in a mater of seconds... Thats a killer for sure...
So my exp with kH is that no buffer is no problem.





never thought I'd be able to grow rotala macrandra in this water, but it is. And yes, that's a -goldfish- putting up with all this soft water low KH nonsense!

Give me a break...


Here is a fact...by the time the coral buffers the pH your GH or TDS is sky high!! Ive used both, I am now back to using baking soda. because you can "measure" it and it is predictable. It is also very true that a buffer does exhaust itself...crushed coral doesnt get exhausted? Just because it provides a longer term effect vs coral doesnt mean its not good. I prefer baking soda over coral because I can target my KH with it, I dont want to tie anyone to my views so I wont quote the perrson who made me realize this.

One thing I learned is there is more then one way to fry and egg. give them a pic of my Discus spawning in a "crashed" aquarium



__Based on reading a related thread at that other plant forum, I lowered my KH to <1 and added CO2 until it dropped off the color chart. And then added more. And more. I got the plants happy and never saw any effect on the fish.

BTW, my tapwater is 15-16dKH and 23-24dGH, so this was a real adjustment.________________


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That reminds me of my tank A 42 gallon with 4 goldfish (ryukin, oranda, pearlscale, and black moor). I've got such a high bioload in there I had to put in a nitrate filter, which ends up keeping the nitrates around 30-40 ppm. I thought the high bioload was what was causing my r. macrandra to fail, but I've progressively been lowering my KH and GH. I'm now targeting 60 ppm KH and 80 ppm GH (both as CaCO3 on the Lamotte kits) and finally my r. macrandra has taken off! It looks just like yours!

And, my fish seem much spunkier and happier in this softer water. So much for goldfish "preferring" harder water.

[thadius65]

Somehow I seem to have got up in the middle of this.... Jeesh. :help:

My last question was in regards to my KH being so low and could it be my use of Peat in my fluval filters? I will test my tap tonight.

Also, about 2 months ago when I setup the tank, I used that 7.0 buffer stuff. That was many 30% water changes ago... wouldn't that be gone by now?

Thanks!

Ted

[fresh_newby]

I would never use that buffer stuff....really do not use it. The only pH 7 thing you should be using is a pH probe calibrator...lol
You are not in the middle of this....it is bigger than you. but getting back to your question...
Of you have made many water changes since then, you should be ok. Don't use that stuff anymore IMO

As for the peat, I wouldn't put anything in my filter until I know my water chemistry raw....once you know that then we can talk about creativity...

Secondly, you need to get a water report from your municipality or utility comapny. You can do a search online. Most will post it. You can get an idea of your KH from there. Then test it with a good kit that has been validated by a control. Once you know, and no new wood, rock, or other hardscape additive has been added, you can get a general idea as to where you will want your pH to get the CO2 in ppm that will be best for your plants.
This link may help you understand the relationship better and how kH .1 is fine. It is also a calculator to determine what pH to target for said ppm CO2....just fill in the number


http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

[thadius65]

They (water company) don't have a clue. Only hardness number they had was CACO3 at 2ppm. No buffers, using chlorine and a Polyortho Phosphate as an anti-corrosive.

[fresh_newby]

ok then next step get a good kh kit....not a cheapie one... or get two types and run them simultaneously to see what you get. but do this from the tap not from the peat-filtered water...

Do you have a hardscape in your tank?

[thadius65]

If you mean a driftwood centerpiece... yes I do.

[fresh_newby]

ok ...get the kh tested out of the tap....then we will go from there. I think you should take out everything BUT your bio-media and your filtration....i.e. take the peat out of your filter so you can then test the tank water with the wood in it and no alterations.

[djlen]

I will respond on this thread one more time to say this.
If you have access to an AP test kit you will get a ballpark result of what you're holding.
That's really all you need. You don't need to spend a bunch of money on expensive test kits. Hobby level kits are not the most accurate but really don't need to be.
If you want to stabilize your pH while injecting CO2 use crushed coral in the filter or in the tank. It will raise your pH and kH, buffer your water and IME not affect plant growth negatively. Baking soda is a quick fix, short term solution, that if used over a prolonged period of time will yo-yo kH and stress fish unless very, very careful application is followed almost daily.
I'm not going to argue with a child over a topic that I've dealt with successfully for years. I've never had anyone reply to my advice regarding the kH/CO2/pH relationship in a negative way. I have had people correspond with me over pH that went south because of improper buffer. It's not fun to lose a tank full of fish when it is very easy to guard against.


Len

[Brilliant]

I will respond on this thread one more time to say this.
If you have access to an AP test kit you will get a ballpark result of what you're holding.
That's really all you need. You don't need to spend a bunch of money on expensive test kits. Hobby level kits are not the most accurate but really don't need to be.
If you want to stabilize your pH while injecting CO2 use crushed coral in the filter or in the tank. It will raise your pH and kH, buffer your water and IME not affect plant growth negatively. Baking soda is a quick fix, short term solution, that if used over a prolonged period of time will yo-yo kH and stress fish unless very, very careful application is followed almost daily.
I'm not going to argue with a child over a topic that I've dealt with successfully for years. I've never had anyone reply to my advice regarding the kH/CO2/pH relationship in a negative way. I have had people correspond with me over pH that went south because of improper buffer. It's not fun to lose a tank full of fish when it is very easy to guard against.


Len


I can tell you that the hobbyist test kits like the ones you mentioned arent even close to accurate.

I can tell you that baking soda's short term is long enough.

I can tell you that if your buffering with crushed coral that doesnt make you experienced.

There is no need to argue, there is also no room for telling someone they are inexperienced when they clearly are.

There are two correct ways to buffer water in the aquarium, crushed coral and baking soda. One effects GH the other doesnt.

In most cases fish lost to co2 isnt because of pH. Please dont push your fear of pH crash onto everyone else.

I am injecting co2 with soft water and according to the test kits your suggest 0 KH.

[thadius65]

Okay, some tap water readings:

3 dKH - 53.7ppm
5 dGH-89.5ppm
6.6 PH

It is much easier to use this aquarium pharm test kit when it changes to blue and orange with first drop with tap as opposed to almost blue or orange with tank water....

So, in theory, removing peat and with a normal water change or two, I should be closer to the tap (except what the wood may be doing), correct?

Thanks,
Ted

[fresh_newby]

Okay, some tap water readings:

3 dKH - 53.7ppm
5 dGH-89.5ppm
6.6 PH

It is much easier to use this aquarium pharm test kit when it changes to blue and orange with first drop with tap as opposed to almost blue or orange with tank water....

So, in theory, removing peat and with a normal water change or two, I should be closer to the tap (except what the wood may be doing), correct?

Thanks,
Ted

Hey Ted:

Remove the peat, do a couple water changes and get a reading.
Your parms are similar to mine....you will NOT need to add crappy coral, and you won't need to use bicarb. Get that reading without the peat and some water changes under your belt. Your tap parms are an aquatic gardner's dream. Cool beans.
Since I have Dj whatever on block, I will speak to you directly, or you can also pm me as to not perpetuate the negativity that mister know it all seems to have. You will want your pH controller to about 6.5 to get around 28ppm CO2 wich will make your plants and fish happy. If you so choose, like I do, you may want to have your CO2 turn off with your lights at night. No sense in wasting the gas from your cylinder when the lights are out and the plants don't utilize much that way. Also you can sleep knowing the CO2 is off....

[fresh_newby]

I can tell you that the hobbyist test kits like the ones you mentioned arent even close to accurate.

I can tell you that baking soda's short term is long enough.

I can tell you that if your buffering with crushed coral that doesnt make you experienced.

There is no need to argue, there is also no room for telling someone they are inexperienced when they clearly are.

There are two correct ways to buffer water in the aquarium, crushed coral and baking soda. One effects GH the other doesnt.

In most cases fish lost to co2 isnt because of pH. Please dont push your fear of pH crash onto everyone else.

I am injecting co2 with soft water and according to the test kits your suggest 0 KH.

Brilliant...you are Brilliant!

[fresh_newby]

I disagree whole heartedly.
I have run my pH from 5.8 to 6.2 with a KH of 2 and pressurized CO2, since March. No problems and crazy plant growth. That is a myth...pH crashes and the like. If your KH is around two as mine is as it comes out of my tap, it is fine. I use a pH controller and pressurized tank with an Aqua Medic reactor as well. Don't be afraid of low KH and low pH...it is your friend. The plants absolutely love it, and happy plants are happy fish!
IME Fish don't die from low pH. If that were the case then the streams and lakes in South America that are loaded with fish and a pH of 4.5, would merely be a figment of our imagination.

[Orgo]

If you're a scientist fresh_newby, you should know that what you are seeing is the way science has been for the past few centuries. There's a generally accepted idea, then evidence comes along to challenge these ideas. Some people accept the new theories, many people reject them, and you get lots of back and forth arguments, even childish behavior and name calling among big names and seasoned professionals. :) This goes on to this day. It's part of the scientific process and how new discoveries are made.

In this case, I would put myself in the "new" crowd djlin. The way this all came about is with users of ADA Aqua Soil, a semi-fired clay with strong negative physio electric charges. It has quite a strong effect on lowering GH and KH. Most users of Aqua Soil setting up ADA style tanks don't bother to test, they just use the Aqua Soil, get great results with healthy and happy plants and fish, and that's it. But some people knew that they already had tap water with a low KH. So they tested their KH to see what it was, and lo and behold, the test kits immediately showed the "end" color on the first drop - 0 KH!

It turns out that these extremely low KH as well as GH levels are typical in tanks maintained by Amano/ADA - they publish these specs in their catalogs and in Aqua Journal. And we all know how successful these tanks are.

We also know that many areas of the Amazon where plants and fish thrive also have very low (sometimes undetectable) KH and GH.

So what's going on? The old idea was that without buffering, the pH would crash and that would kill the fish. Why is that not happening?

Well, water with a low KH means that you will see a faster and sharper pH swing when acids or bases are added. That means if you put too much CO2 into the tank, you will see a very low pH.

But is it the low pH that is killing the fish, or is it too high a level of CO2 and/or a combination of too little dissolved oxygen?

After a lot of testing and reporting among many hobbyists, the latter seems to be the theory that is likely to be the correct one.

Again fresh_newby, for a very long time the accepted notion was to keep the KH at a minimum of 3. When you are presenting new evidence to challenge long held ideas, you are going to get resistance, and it is going to take a lot of time, energy, explanation, debate, and evidence to get the new ideas into general acceptance.

djlin, I encourage you to keep and open mind and if you can do some of your own experimenting and investigation to test these new ideas so you can properly rethink your stance and better support it.

[Brilliant]

Orgo that was well put.

It seems this fear of pH crash is inhibiting the hobby from exploring these new realms and it is hard to digest certain advice sometimes.

[fresh_newby]

I hear your Orgo, and I am not pushing my ideas or thoughts, I am merely stating them, and as you can see, I got not only the condescending attitude but I was even called a "child" because I don't have the same line of thinking. Though I appreciate being called a child...lol....I am merely trying to point out a different experience based on observation, and try to maybe make people think a little, that maybe a widely held phobia is not, in fact, true. This is precisely what these such forums exist, no?

IMO you are 100% correct in thinking that fish loss is due to people od'ing the CO2 and that is coupled with too little dissolved O2. If you maintain your desired pH, this should not be a problem. If the pH drops below desired, turn off your CO2, if it is too high, turn it on. Adding buffers and equilibrators, and the like are not necessary IMO, and yes Aqua soil 's KH lowering proerties were precisely what initiated many of us to experiment this way to begin with. Hard to grow species and even the easy ones clearly exhibit faster growth, better coloring, better leaf formation and easier propagation. Not everyone can afford aquasoil, so these properties were put to the test, since many of us, luckily, have soft water.

Happy plants are happy fish....as long as you do not overdo the CO2. my kH is right around 2.5, so my pH is kept at 6.4-6.6. when it drops to 6.3, my CO2 is off, but if I keep it on 3bps while the lights are on, and have it turn off when the lights turn off, everyone is happy. The delta in pH overnight is about 2 tenths and is easily returned to proper levels when the lights and CO2 come back on.

My inhabitants include, Amano shrimp, cherries, a couple of wood shrimp, as well as red line sharks, Bosemani rainbows, some swordtails some cardinals, Bororas brigittae, 2 SAE, 2 plecos, 10 otos and my trusty Betta. All that have a mating pair have spawned since I did this. Even my Olive Nerites reproduce in my tank.

Anyway, if anyone would like to further discuss this constructively, I invite you to do so :idea:

[thadius65]

So let me see if I get this right....

I am going to remove peat from my tank and over then next 1-2 weeks do my usual or slightly more frequent 30% water changes. At the end of this I should have a closer to tap parms of 3dKH (maybe slightly lower due to driftwood) and a PH of 6.8 or so. I will install my CO2 and utlize the SMS122 PH controller and set for 6.4PH. I will set my buble counter to 3bps. Sound good so far?

I don't understand why I would shut of CO2 at night when I have a PH controller. Set at 6.4 it will shut off when it gets there, so night time/lights out it will most likely shut off anyways, but maintain a more constant PH/CO2 lever, correct?

Thanks!

Ted

[fresh_newby]

So let me see if I get this right....

I am going to remove peat from my tank and over then next 1-2 weeks do my usual or slightly more frequent 30% water changes. At the end of this I should have a closer to tap parms of 3dKH (maybe slightly lower due to driftwood) and a PH of 6.8 or so. I will install my CO2 and utlize the SMS122 PH controller and set for 6.4PH. I will set my buble counter to 3bps. Sound good so far?

I don't understand why I would shut of CO2 at night when I have a PH controller. Set at 6.4 it will shut off when it gets there, so night time/lights out it will most likely shut off anyways, but maintain a more constant PH/CO2 lever, correct?

Thanks!

Ted

Sounds good Ted:

Make sure you have calibrated your probe properly. Nothing replaces good old observation. I don't put 100% trust in the instruments, they are merely there to help us. I had a pH probe go bad while I was on vacation, so bad things can happen when all of our eggs are in that basket.

by observation I mean the following:

Are my plants outgassing O2 regularly...are they growing...are they stunted...are there any algal blooms...

Are my fish hanging out at the top. Do they apprear stressed or happy? Are they spawning?

Each thing adds up to your whole picture.

You do not need to shut off your CO2 at night....it isn't necessary. That said, You need to have good water movement for O2 dissolution. The key to getting where you need to be with this is to take the least path of resistance, observe and determine what is best for you. You may wake up and find all of the fish at the top "gasping" That is a sign of too much CO2 and not enough O2 in the form of water movement or plant O2 outgassing <pearling>. One remedy is to run an airstone at night. Personally, I kill two birds with one stone. I just turn off the pH controller/CO2 with the lights. This way my CO2 gas lasts twice as long. There is no need to maintain a 6.4 pH overnight. Your fish don't care, and your plants will not utilize the CO2 when the lights are off, so you are just gassing for no reason IMO. If you shut it off at night, your pH will likely inch up to about 6.7 and in the morning, when the lights go back on and your CO2 resumes, it will right it at a measured pace. You never have to wake up to fish at the surface.
remember, CO2 runs, your pH is 6.4 your lights are on, you dose ferts, your plants grow, that said, at night, CO2 on, pH 6.4 but no lights, so the plants will not outgas O2, so available O2 for your fish is not as plentiful as it is during lights on. This is why many either turn it off at night, or leave it on the controller, but have an airstone run when lights are off.
You will find out what works best for you. I still don't know your fert schedule or filtration. This helps determine a lot as well. Hope this helps.

[thadius65]

Ferts..... Should that be my focus between now and near tap parms with my water? Currently, the only thing I put in is excel (not a fert). I was using a liquid 0-0-5 or something along those lines. But nothing right now.

I guess I have some more reading to do. Thanks!

[loaches r cool]

fresh_newby, I am on board with you about the low KH possibilities... if this is true then its good news to me, one less thing to fuss about. But you could have gone about breaking the news a bit differently. I mean, its pretty well common knowledge here that you should maintain a min 3-4* KH, and that if your KH is too low you could have a PH crash. I simply took that for truth since like I said, its pretty common knowledge. I have not myself read anything on this forum that contradicts that (not to say there wasnt some threads that I missed somewhere - thats always possible). So obviously it will take alot to persuade people of this thinking to this new idea. Perhaps it would have been better to start a thread titled something like, 'debating the low KH myth' or 'you dont really need high KH with CO2'... and present your findings and that link to the planted tank forum. But instead here you have picked a thread with a CO2 newby asking for advice and a knowledgable aquarist has brought up the common information, and you have practically attacked them about it. With your attitude here I would not have beleived a thing you said if it wasnt for the link to the planted tank.
And just because the are fish somewhere that live in a ph of 4.5 doesnt prove much. I mean fish live in very different environments, like say the bottom of the ocean for example. But that doesnt mean that my Tiger Lotus and Clown Loaches will thrive at the bottom of the ocean. You also shouldnt be continously double-posting, and if you want to debate a particular topic you should start a new thread instead of hijacking, thats all just common forum etiquette.

[fresh_newby]

Wow loaches thanks for the advice and concern. I don't think; however, that this info helps Ted very much.

I did not come here to persuade everyone, convert anyone, or the like. If you re-read this thread you can see that I was clearly attacked, my intellect was attacked, and even my maturity was attacked. All because one one line...I strongly disagree Again, this is not helping Ted very much. I was perusing the forum as I do many things. As you can see I don't post very much, I read. I did not come here to start a thread about how pH crashes are a myth, or Soft water rules ..... I came upon this post and thought...hey, I can help this kid with some info before he starts adding a bunch of stuff to his new tank and complicating things.

Yes, because fish in South America live in a pH of 4.5, that does prove something. I was adressing fish tolerability, not whether your tiger lotus will grow there. It proves they tolerate an acidic pH as low as 4.3.

I guess all I will apologize for is the double posting, only because I am at work multitasking and when another thought comes to mind to help Ted, I post it. Sorry for the double posting...btw your fish pics and tanks on your site are very nice. Good job~

As for hijacking, I am doing nothing of the sort. Someone is asking for help and asking questions, and everything I have posted has been relavant to Ted and helping him get his aquarium up and running as simply, efficiently and successfully as possible. That said...


Ted:

Ferts. Yes you are right, excel is not a fert.
You need to dose macros and micros. I first want to make sure you plant this thing well. Lets get more info from you. How about a list of flora, both present and projected since I already saw your critter list. Also do you plan to add another wpg when you add the CO2?

[thadius65]

Kid? Thanks.... Feels good at 41 to not be called an old man.

Plants are as follows:

(2) large amazon swords
(3) amazon swords propagated from above (small)
(2) large red ludwigia
(2) large balls of Java Moss
(3) some type of grass (not sure what it is) it propagates by growing shoots with new plants and continues with these runners....

That is it for now.

Peat removed tonight and 40% water change. Excel added along with 0-0-3 ferts.

Thanks!
Ted

[fresh_newby]

Kid? Thanks.... Feels good at 41 to not be called an old man.

Plants are as follows:

(2) large amazon swords
(3) amazon swords propagated from above (small)
(2) large red ludwigia
(2) large balls of Java Moss
(3) some type of grass (not sure what it is) it propagates by growing shoots with new plants and continues with these runners....

That is it for now.

Peat removed tonight and 40% water change. Excel added along with 0-0-3 ferts.

Thanks!
Ted
Wow someone a year older than me????
sorry about this kid thing....it was not meant derogatorily <like the "child" reference to me was...lol>

It looks like you also need some fast growing nutrient sponge type stem plants as well once you have your CO2 hooked up.
Once you get your lighting upped and your CO2 hooked up, ask around <or I can send you some> and get a few stems that outcompete alge and gorw fast. i have some Hygrophila balsamica that workks nicely for this. Also some Limnophila or some najas or water sprite. The key to doing this right is to be heavily planted. You will have to start a fert schedul as well. I suggest going to Tom Barr's site and read up on things like Estimative Index and such. His link is www.barrreport.com
I speak to him regularly and he has pioneered the EI way of doing ferts. This is a great way because plants get what they need, there is no need for over precise measuring and mixing, and because with this method you do 50% water changes weekly to reset the tank, you don't need to use inaccurate test kits and overthink this and algae is not an issue <as long as you have your CO2 up to 20-30ppm.>
Anyway, let me know if you need me to send you some plants. Wait until you get your CO2 set up though, but when you do, send me 4 bucks for shipping and I will hook you up if you would like.

[loaches r cool]

Hey no prob. Although I think information like this should be shared to the entire community not just to one individual. If maintaining a certain KH value is relatively unimportant then people need to know. You are right though, djlen did come down on you pretty hard. I would say that was in resopnse to more than just one phrase though. We should never assume who people are either. We have no idea who people are and even if they say one thing they very well could be something else.
I didnt mean to confuse the issue by throwing a tiger lotus in my example.... so I will repeat with the plant removed: "And just because there are fish somewhere that live in a ph of 4.5 doesnt prove much. I mean fish live in very different environments, like say the bottom of the ocean for example. But that doesnt mean that my Clown Loaches will thrive at the bottom of the ocean." I am not debating that some or most fish cant survive in a ph of 4.5, just your reasoning that because there are certain fish that do in a certain place, that all can. A Clown loach cannot live in the ocean even though fish live there, similarly you probably can't put a And I didnt mean to play mod on you there... I was out of place. I just come from forums that are a lot more strict than AC is... a lot more.

I am curious though, you mention that "2 or more is FINE", yet alot of the information you reference suggests KH of .1 is ok. Is there a reason you are saying 2*KH, and not less? Or is it simply because thats what yours naturaly sits at, but less is also ok? I do beleive before I started dosing bicarb that my KH was less than 1*, but its been so long I forget exactly, would have to check my tap to see what it is.

[twig]

*shrug*
From my understanding a 3-6Gh is dead on.

the drop of Ph due to co2 isn't the same kind of drop from things like peat or coral from what I know, too.

I've personally never heard of anyone hardening their water because my water is 6ppm Gh and read that it was solid. Without changing anything ive just added co2 in Excel and yeast forms without showing any negative side-effects on my fish.

I have seen cories die from a change in Gh due to stones and gravel in the water however. Though easily confused with the stress of a waterchange I think it has more to do with a swing in Gh from rock and substrate.

Changing your Gh by means of rock (or coral) will mean a Gh shift whenever you do a waterchange.

If your tap water has 3-6ppm you will see drops in Ph but that isnt a drastic shock like constant changes in Gh every water change.

Getting a tank to 'crash' would suck but im not really too sure how much Co2 can build up if you have timers and or its just a yeast system. I bet your PH would have to drop lower than 5 or something but i've never seen it happen.

*shrug*

Match your water with the tapwater as much as you can if you can get away with it.

[thadius65]

Fresh_newby,

Great pics on your website. Is that an SAE? Nice aquascaping.

I really want to get a carpet like effect with Riccia or someting else. As I await my water parms, I am thinking about substrate and ferts as you mentioned. I currently have medium to large quartz like gravel. That most likely will not cut it. I am afraid to rip and replace though and disrupt my fish friends. Possibly looking to do eco complete, kitty litter or soilmaster, etc. Still in the thinking phase though.

In regards to plants. Yes I would appreciate some and will gladly send you $4 for shipping. If you accept paypal, I will compensate for the charge. I will advise. Parms tonight are no better. getting an immediate 0-1ppm on my KH. More to come.

Thanks,

Ted

[fresh_newby]

Loach:

Again, many of our aquaria species, say cichlids, can live in a nat pH environment of 4.x. That was my point. I am not talking about clown loaches can live in the bottom of ANY ocean <most oceans are salt anyway, so we should be talking about clown fish, not clown loaches...> anyway, often pH doesn't matter to aquaria fish. Most, if not all, can tolerate acidic pH as long as you are heavily planted and enough O2 is available to them. pH does not cause fish to stress...CO2 overdose and lack of O2 and water movement stress fish. When referring to a heavily planted tank, much of the regular fishkeeping rules go out of the window.
I mention a KH of 2 or more, because in a pm, someone had thought that 2 was "borderine: which it is not. Again, I am talking about a heavily planted, CO2 injected tank. Currently we have tanks running with an immeasurable KH <i.e.0 by standard hobbyist test kits> and a pH of 5.3. The Apistos are loving it, and spawning, the Rainbows are doing great, as is the schooling fish, corys, otos, Amanos and Cherrys, and the plants are algae-free and in need of pruning weekly.
Again, what brought this whole experiment on, was Amano's nature tanks, ADA Aquasoil and Co2 injection. The KH in those tanks set in right around zero...again, hobbyist test kits are not sensitive or sophisticated enough to detect a KH so for our purposes it is zero, but all water in nature has some buffering capacity. Anyway, back to Amano's tanks. by nature, Aquasoil is clay-based, and with my nat KH of 2.5 out of the tap, the addition of Aquasoil brings it down to zero. I DO NOT add baking soda or coral or any additives. Someone argued that plants don't grow better in softer water....without any experimentation to base that on. I defy you to fine a more uniform carpet of HC, better Tonina, Limnophila, thicker hairgrass...etc than that grown in Aquasoil, and it automatically makes your
water soft. People spread the "pH crash" terror so rapidly, that many were reluctant to even try this experiment becuse they were afraid of the low pH effect on fish. Again, pH doesn't kill fish...CO2 overdose and lack of O2 can kill fish. Solution? Keep your CO2 20-30 ppm. Watch your plants, look for pearling, observe the fish's behavior. With a proper fert schedult, good CO2, good watermovement, and heavy plant load, you will never have to use a test kit again.


twig:

You are talking GH not KH. The two are very different.
GH is a measure of the calcium and magnesium in your water and KH is a measure of the carbonate level. Your GH level is just fine. Don't do anything. I think the majority of this conversation is based on KH/pH relationship with regards to the injection of CO2 in the water column. As long as you have a measurable GH you are fine. 3-5 is fine. The argument here is whether a KH boost is needed to prevent the dreaded "pH crash" which is really something repeated without knowledge of what it really is or how it affects your environment.The answer IME is no.

Ted:
First, I really need to update those pics because MAN it looks completely different now...lol <for the better> That was more like...grow the plants, play with parms, decide how things are affected...etc. No real scape back then. I will do it soon. As for the plants, I will send them to you np, I will pm you my paypal, and wiil get your shipping address from that.

Eco complete is a good substrate, although it takes a few water changes to stabilize. Soilmaster is another good one.. You can't really go wrong with those. As for kitty litter, it does work for many, but I warn you, it is very light, so when you plant, it is a nightmare. If you decide later to change, nothing is worse then digging out bags of wet cat litter from your tank. I would advise against that. As for your present quartz, it will be fine. As long as you some sort of root tab for your swords and such, and get on a real fert schedule, you should have enough nourshment, coupled with the carbon, to maintain a planted tank. One step at a time. I advise that you do the light, CO2 and ferts at the same time to avoid an algal bloom.

[loaches r cool]

I am not talking about clown loaches can live in the bottom of ANY ocean <most oceans are salt anyway, so we should be talking about clown fish, not clown loaches...>

Ahh but thats my point. By your prior reasoning, since some fish do live at the bottom of the ocean then my loaches should be able to also. But different fish that come from different environments have adapted to those paramaters, and that does not mean that all can. I was nit picking a little since you said you were a scientist but your reasoning was a bit on shakey grounds. I have not done any research on how fish tolerate low ph since I had bought into the higher KH values so my ph doesnt often dip below 6.6 or so. But I have always believed as others do that they dont really read the ph value specifically, within reason - and its the within reason part that I am unsure of, meaning what is the low limit, and does the 'low limit' vary much throughout the species of fish in aquaria. Since I do inject CO2 and I am pretty sure my tap KH is very low, I might be down in this range if I stop doesing bicarb... so I will do it very gradually and monitor closely.


With a proper fert schedult, good CO2, good watermovement, and heavy plant load, you will never have to use a test kit again.

That is music to my ears. I should be there soon (I hope) since I recently started dosing dry ferts following the EI, and upping my co2 a bit higher along with adding an additional powerhead too.

[fresh_newby]

Hey loaches

misunderstanding because that wasn't my comparitor, but we move on...<by the way, I have a reticulated hill stream loach on the way...psyched..but I digress

The addition of a powerhead is key and your dosing schedule is great. How many wpg are you running now? Well you can't throw away thie kits yet...do me a favor....measure your kh out of the tap and measure your kh after a 50% water change next time...let me know what it is without bicarb alteration.

[fresh_newby]

Hey no prob. Although I think information like this should be shared to the entire community not just to one individual. If maintaining a certain KH value is relatively unimportant then people need to know. You are right though, djlen did come down on you pretty hard. I would say that was in resopnse to more than just one phrase though. We should never assume who people are either. We have no idea who people are and even if they say one thing they very well could be something else.
I didnt mean to confuse the issue by throwing a tiger lotus in my example.... so I will repeat with the plant removed: "And just because there are fish somewhere that live in a ph of 4.5 doesnt prove much. I mean fish live in very different environments, like say the bottom of the ocean for example. But that doesnt mean that my Clown Loaches will thrive at the bottom of the ocean." I am not debating that some or most fish cant survive in a ph of 4.5, just your reasoning that because there are certain fish that do in a certain place, that all can. A Clown loach cannot live in the ocean even though fish live there, similarly you probably can't put a And I didnt mean to play mod on you there... I was out of place. I just come from forums that are a lot more strict than AC is... a lot more.

I am curious though, you mention that "2 or more is FINE", yet alot of the information you reference suggests KH of .1 is ok. Is there a reason you are saying 2*KH, and not less? Or is it simply because thats what yours naturaly sits at, but less is also ok? I do beleive before I started dosing bicarb that my KH was less than 1*, but its been so long I forget exactly, would have to check my tap to see what it is.

Just to keep you up...here is a most recent update thread for you to read...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/35622-our-low-kh-experiment-lets-update.html

[IceH2O]

thadius65


If Fresh doesn't have any plants you like I trim mine every 2 weeks. I have some fast growers but no CO2 injection, otherwise i'd be trimming weekly.

Here is a list of what I normally trim:

Hygro Ceylon and Sunset
CABOMBA CAROLINIANA
Myriophyllum mattogrossense
HYDROCOTYLE LEUCOCEPHALA-- (Brazillian Pennywort)
some type of rotala, narrow leaf and has red and green leaves


sometimes:
BACOPA CAROLINIANA
Creeping Jenny



If you'd like to see my tanks
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68550

It shows my tank from day 1 to the end of August. A few months in between pics.

[thadius65]

Thanks for the plant offers.

Still awaiting my water parms and just finished a 50% water change. Will be checking numbers in the morning.

Wow this hobby can sure eat up the time.....Spent the past 1.5 days building a wood canopy that hinges and installed IceCap 430 with 2-36" and 1-48" VHO aquasun bulbs along with my moon LEDs. So now I have 2.5wpg total in my tank.

Thanks again for all the help/info.

Ted

[twig]

i ment KH buffer =(

[fresh_newby]

Ted, would love to see some pics of your diy canopy...and yes it can take some time to do these things. Once you get the tough stuff done, I hear it becomes relaxing lolol

[thadius65]

My goal was 3.5 watts per gallon and I got about as close as I can tonight. In addition to my 2-36" and 1-48" vho aquasuns (10k), I installed 2-30w (looks like a cinamon bun) and 2-20w Walmart (all lights of america) CF screw in bulbs. The interior of my canopy is white, so it appears I am getting additional light. So a total of 3.3WPG as of tonight.

MAN those CFs get hot compared to my VHOs. May need a fan in the canopy.

CO2 is next..... Must read on ferts some more. Algae is just waiting for me to slip up.....

Ted

[fresh_newby]

Yes Ted it is....lol
You can get the ferts dry from www.gregwatson.com
They are cheap and will last you a while.
Get some K2SO4, KNO3, CSM+B, MgSO4 and KH2PO4...Make sure to dose your MG and PO4 on opposing days or you will see some precipitation.
Read up on doses and principal here:

http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html

i hope this helps

[Brilliant]

You are right though, djlen did come down on you pretty hard.

I am wondering what prompted you to make your first post....or did you realize this later. I never saw an apology...LOL.

Ahh but thats my point. By your prior reasoning, since some fish do live at the bottom of the ocean then my loaches should be able to also. But different fish that come from different environments have adapted to those paramaters, and that does not mean that all can. But I have always believed as others do that they dont really read the ph value specifically, within reason - and its the within reason part that I am unsure of, meaning what is the low limit, and does the 'low limit' vary much throughout the species of fish in aquaria. Since I do inject CO2 and I am pretty sure my tap KH is very low, I might be down in this range if I stop doesing bicarb... so I will do it very gradually and monitor closely.


Whats your point? Different fish require different parameters? Yes I AGREE...to the fullest extent. Soft acidic water fish belong in soft acidic water likewise with the latter. Know your parameters. Dont keep 0-1KH with Africans...I dont think anyone is being ignorant of that. This is about co2, KH , plants and a myth thats lived too long.

At certain times Ive seen pH values that are extremely low. I am keeping soft acidic water fish...I use soft acidic water.



My goal was 3.5 watts per gallon and I got about as close as I can tonight. So a total of 3.3WPG as of tonight.
Ted


Ut oh another can of worms...WPG...LOL!

[thadius65]

Ferts from Greg came yesterday. Mixed up my liquid batches (CSM+B and MGSO4) and (KN03, KH2P04 and K2S04) and began with the later.

M,W,F -- CSM Solution
Based off of Greg's "Roll your own"

Sun, T, Th - K Solution
Based off of:
1.5tsp KN03 3x per week
.5 tsp KH2P04 3x per week
.5 tsp KS2S04 3x per week

Plants pearling, fish NOT gasping.... so far so good.

Lynn- got some Crystal Red Shrimp from a LFS (ordered them). $3 a piece!! but they were very very small... Got 6 of them, descent color. Not sure if I have anymore than one survivor though. Might have been a moderately expensive snack for my Clown Loaches... :thud:

[thadius65]

I am going to attempt to post pictures (first time here):

(sorry failed)

[loaches r cool]

Brilliant, yeah I kinda realized that later. And that little bit of argument is now a couple weeks old. But if you have to bring it up again...

Whats your point? Different fish require different parameters? Yes I AGREE...to the fullest extent. Soft acidic water fish belong in soft acidic water likewise with the latter. Know your parameters. Dont keep 0-1KH with Africans...I dont think anyone is being ignorant of that. This is about co2, KH , plants and a myth thats lived too long.

No it wasnt about co2, kH and plants per-se, it was in response to fish living at very low ph. I was making a point, not saying what is correct or not. What I was refering to was this statement:
IME Fish don't die from low pH. If that were the case then the streams and lakes in South America that are loaded with fish and a pH of 4.5, would merely be a figment of our imagination.
It was pointed out that fish live at a ph of 4.5 at some particular place in the world. And by not keeping your KH up with co2, you ph could similarly get this low. And the point was made that this is just fine. But is it really? There was no mention that some fish and plants might not be able to tolerate such low ph. I do not know what all fish and plants can or can't live there fullest at 4.5ph, just pointing out that just because some do that doesnt mean all can, so caution may be advisable before subjecting your tank to extremely low ph without regard of the species of your fish and plants. It could very well be that most or all aquarium fish and plants can, I dont know, just advise some more research first.

The other point I brough up was that this whole topic of low kh, co2, and ph crash really could have been introduced hear a bit better, ideally in its own thread since this is a huge topic. You all just really springed it on us here at AC as if it was common knowledge, and couldnt beleive there was someone who didnt know about it. I honestly dont think it was ever even mentioned prior that the ph crash could be a myth, coral isnt good to buffer, etc., these things were commonly accepted as fact. To expect most people who have long beleived otherwise to simply accept what 1 or 2 new users say is silly, of course there will be a lot of opposition. I for one do beleive this concept has merit, and I am slowly reducing my bicarb dosing. It would be nice if I can eliminate dosing all together, I'll soon see if I can. Any less work I have to do the better :)


thadius65 - sounds good! Its always nice to see the plants pearling. Sorry to hear about the shrimp though. I have been debating shrimp too but have the same dilemma with the clown loaches. It must be a hit or miss thing, as one of the lfs's here have a large heavily planted tank with a few clowns in there (~5" each) and many many shrimps (even small ones ~1") in there with them. I am trying a pair of wood/bamboo/singapore/whatever shrimp that are pretty large (~2.5" currently). They are filter feeders though, and apparently dont eat much surface algea but supposed to eat suspended algea.

[fresh_newby]

Ted good going!
I can't wait to see the plants I sent you growing and pearling!
As for cherries and clown loaches....eeeeeeeeeeek no go. They will eat them all :(
I would stick wither to one or the other, or you will be feeding expensive goodies!



Loaches....be aware that Brilliant is a great person and is just watching my back <appreciated Frank>
He doesn't like when people are mean to those trying to go out of their way to help. Hell, I don't either! lol
Lets just put it past us and get Ted going....That is my goal here anyway!

[gagaliya]

Just read past the first page so if this is already mentioned my apologies. fresh_newby and dijen are both right, it was just two school of thoughts. Some facts:


1) CO2 injection will lower ph if there is no buffer (low kh), heavy co2 injection from pressurized will lower ph to dangerous levels with no buffer(low kh)
2) crushed coral is a proven method to safely raise and stabilize kh to a consistent level without adding chemicals etc regularly. A bag of crushed coral will buffer for months to year

two school of thoughts:

1) Old school - pressurized co2 at a fixed bubble/sec rate(usually through trial and error to get 20-30ppm co2) ran 24/7, no ph monitoring, no fancy digital hardwares. At night run a powerhead/bubblewand to create surface movement for gas exchange. In this case if your tap water has low KH (<3), you NEED to buffer it to be safe.

2) High tech - pressurized co2 automated by ph monitor, it will turn the co2 off when ph drops below certain level. In this case, crushed coral should not be used since it has the potential to mess up the ph monitor readings. And the fact that co2 will be turned off auto when ph drops makes buffering the tank pointless.

As an added note to 2), if you have like 0 kh in the tap water, this method wont work good if you want good co2 level, you should just go with 1) instead. Personally i would never bother with 2), less digital crap = less variables for failure.

I think dijen was basing his argument on 1) and fresh_newby on 2).

[fresh_newby]

yes and no...
you can use both methods for a low KH. You never really have a KH of zero, we just think we do because of our crappy teat kits. Their sensitivity is not such to detect anything when there are low levels present. I have noticed crushed coral doing more harm than good. If you want to raise GH I have seen better results with MgSo4 and CaCl2...but as for KH the "new" school is to leave it alone. If it is 0.5-2, no need to add anything. The plants do better and the fish are fine. Just don't OD them with CO2 gas. There is more reading about all of this all over but here are a few threads you can peruse.

old one
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/32365-low-no-kh-low-ph-without.html

update

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/35622-our-low-kh-experiment-lets-update.html

[reiverix]

Some plants (Vallisneria comes to mind) can obtain carbon from carbonates. Not really a problem if you're injecting CO2 but still a curious trait for a plant.

For calcium try CaSO4 instead of CaCl2. It's a lot more plant friendly.

[justintoxicated]

Wow that was alot of reading I guess I'm doing everything wrong...

I have Co2 Injection (DIY) with a red sea CCO2 reactor 500 to disole the CO2 into the water. I use crushed coral in my filter because I NEED the PH above 7 in order for my Brigs (Mystery Snails) to grow healthy shells. Calcium disolves into water and it buffers my PH/KH at the same time

I have not had any problems though.

[skiboarder72]

this is slightly off topic but I didnt want to make a new thread, If i hook up a valve to my DIY yeast Co2 and turn off the co2 injection into the tank overnight is the gas going to build up alot inside my tubing/2 liter? It would be nice to turn it off overnight but I don't want to wake up to a big mess because the pressure got too high overnight with no release!

[thadius65]

Lets try this picture thing one more time:

Whole Tank
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m281/thadius65/fish003.jpg

Left Side
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m281/thadius65/fish004.jpg

Middle
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m281/thadius65/fish005.jpg

Right Side
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m281/thadius65/fish006.jpg

My Favorite fish - Angelicus Botia (1 of 2)
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m281/thadius65/fish008.jpg

Noticed a major start of BBA tonight... come on ferts! also awaiting a CO2 reactor.

Thanks,

Ted

[fresh_newby]

you do not want BBA!!!
Get that CO2 crankin..in the meantime dose excel x 3

Looking good Ted. When you get your CO2 hooked up you need more plant mass though. I have some eco for you ...check the other forum thread.

[thadius65]

CO2 is hooked up, but no reactor.. Hopefully next week. Meantime it is just the rena micro bubbler below my spary bar.

Just for s#*@'s and giggles, see what shipping is from you to 17754 for eco per bag. Let me know $ for bag and $ for shipping.

I found Turface Pro locally, but not sure if I like the lighter color.

Thanks,

Ted

[skiboarder72]

looking real clean!!

[thadius65]

Thanks!

Pics 1 and 2 show the BBA starting back up (tips of amazon sword).

[fresh_newby]

Ted I think it would run about 23 a bag shipped....it is close to black.
As for the bba on the swords, when you get this cranking with the reactor, prune the leaves with it on it, then squirt some excel on the plant with a syringe. That will help.

[thadius65]

Lynn,

Thanks, I will let you know. I tried some things to get Soilmaster and will see what happens.

This BBA is growing fast. I may need to do a blackout prior to getting my reactor....

Ted

[reiverix]

BBA can handle blackouts fine and dandy. Just spot treat the infected parts with Excel. I also find it's easier to keep tanks algae free with more plant mass.

[Brilliant]

Brilliant, yeah I kinda realized that later. And that little bit of argument is now a couple weeks old. But if you have to bring it up again...






I dont come here much. Fish come first. My fish just happen to be soft acidic. I think F_N summed it up pretty well.

The tank is going to look very good.I ended up positioning my jungle vals in the back. They spread like crazy and took over the back of the tank. ALso my dwarf sword gobbld up my entire foreground that one grows quickly. I would like to see it again in three months.

[fresh_newby]

BBA can handle blackouts fine and dandy. Just spot treat the infected parts with Excel. I also find it's easier to keep tanks algae free with more plant mass.
He is right Ted. Blackouts only quell BGA <a bacterium> not BBA. You need to load up a syringe with excel and squrit the hell out of the plants. Use 3x's dose for several days.

[thadius65]

Excell is turning the bad stuff red! It is working. To further show that I am an accident waiting to happen.... While I was "squriting the hell out of the plants" I also was hitting the drift wood.. Well one of my three oto's was blending in just a bit and I nailed him with Excel!!! :o I thought it was over for him. It has been two days and he is still luckily with me...

So, I have gone through a full 250ml bottle in 4 days in my 125g. I really need to find the cause of this and get the right balance. EI for two weeks and CO2 via microbubbler (reactor on its way). Excel in qty is going to kill me, even in a 2 or 4 liter bottle.

Ted