Something wrong with Bolivian Ram

[Nicole29]

I think something is wrong with my Bolivian Ram, but I have no idea what. The past 2 days he has been sitting at the bottom of the tank not swimming and breathing rapidly. Also, I noticed about a week ago that he was a little darker in colour (but I didn't think anything was wrong as he was still acting normal). He hides at the back of the tank so it's difficult to see him, however I can't see anything physically wrong with him (then again I don't really know what to look for).

I'm not sure what to do, right now I have an ich outbreak in my 10g quarantine (newly arrivals) so I have no where else to put him. Anyone know what I can do??

[Nicole29]

well my ram ended up dying, still not sure why (he was very dark in colour when he died though)

but now my other ram is acting the same way. He is just sitting at the bottom of the tank not moving. HE doesn't seem to be breathing very heavily and he's not any darker in colour. If anyone can give me any ideas on what to do to try and save him please help

My water parameters seem fine, none of my other fish are exhibiting this behaviour

[boofish2]

oh sorry, you fish died :( Can you give us a bit more info so as to help identify the problem? What exactly are your parameters? Are these rams new additions? Who elses is in your tank? What size tank do you have? Also, tell us about the ich situation in your Q tank, was it someone from the main tank? Was it a new fish? Sorry for the 20 questions, it's just hard to diagnose the problem without a little more info. Thanx!

[Cathy G]

How long have you had him? What are your nitrates? Do you feed live red worms? What's his/her poop like? Dark colors = stress. Is there another fish bothering him? Whats the temperature - keep it at 80-82 if not already there. If he is still eating, get some Metro+ distrib. by Hikari and dissolve a pinch in warm water. Then soak his favorite food in it and feed it to him... Metro+ is a form of Metronidazole... this will take care of internal parasites, and it also has an antibiotic in it.
Cathy

[Nicole29]

I have had both my rams for a while now (since the start of August).
My parameters are ammonia 0.6 mg/L, Nitrate between 5-10, nitrite 0, I know ammonia is supposed to be at 0 so I'll do a water change however none of my other fish (5 cardinal tetras, 3 red lined rasboras, 3 peppered corys, 1 pleco)--33 gallon tank. I don't feed live food, only flakes, frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp, and algae wafers as well as the occasional vegetable. I haven't noticed the colour of his poop, i'll have to start paying better attention. The other fish seem to leave him alone so I don't think that is the problem. He was eating yesterday but now he isn't even coming to the top. He sometimes as trouble getting food though, the rasboras are too quick for him. The temperature is about 80 right now .
The ick outbreak was in my 10g quarantine, all new additions so that wouldn't be the problem.
The rasboras are new additions (not from LFS--got them off someone) but I can't recall if my rams exhibited this behaviour before or after I put them in. But they all seem to be acting fine, same with the cardinals.

Thank you for your quick responses.

[Nicole29]

i'm gonna go run out to the store now and see if they have Metro+ or anything for internal parasites. Hopefully I can save this one

[Nicole29]

ok I picked up two things:

Anti parasite medicated fish food for internal parasites by Jungle--but he's not eating so i'm not sure this will be good

Parasity Clear Tank Buddies for internal and external parasites by Jungle--these are the tablets that dissolve

which one do you guys think I should use?? This was all they had

[Cathy G]

What is killing your ram is ammonia. It burns their gills. Burns leave scar tissue and the fish never fully recovers. Rams are very very sensitive to ammonia - perhaps if you would have mentioned this in your first post someone would have told you to change water right away.

If you are cycling your tank with fish, water changes are in store for you. Start asap. Get that ammonia to 0. Forget the medicines now - they will only stress the fish more.

Cathy

[Star_Rider]

if it's not eating there isn't much sense in feeding anti parasite food.

btw, jungle anti parasite food has metro,prazi and levamisole..a very good mix of anti parasite meds.

jungle parasite clear has metro and prazi in it. it works on most parasites. but not very well on camillanus and capillaria. these two have been infecting many sa cichlids(particularly angels)..the levamisole in the food will work.

you can dose the water with the parasite clear..be ready to do 2 doses.many times this wil help the fish enough to get a bit ahead of the parasites.

if the fish starts eating or atleast taking food in..then start using anti parasite food.( I usually mix it with blood worms or thawed frozen brine shrimp.)

boofish how has your fish done??

[Nicole29]

today I did 2 more large water changes (50% and 30%) and my ammonia test reads that the ammonia is higher after each time (I use prime to decholorinate).

I have some Ammo-Lock that I just added to see if that will be a help. If this was a bad idea please let me know and what I should do to get rid of it?

Right now I don't have any live plants in there (they have recently been moved to another tank), if I put some new ones in there would that help with my ammonia?

thanks

[Nicole29]

also I'm not cycling, I have had this tank running since May and have cycled the tank. I do weekly water changes (50%) or else two (30%) changes a week. I'm not sure what's up with the ammonia right now.

[Star_Rider]

you may be seeing false positive test results. if the water source uses chloraimes the de-chlorinator breaks the chlorine ammonia bond and locks up the ammonia ..I believe it adds and extra hydrogen to it ..still utilzed by the bacteria..but may show up as ammonia in your tests..have you tgried getting tests from the tap/water source.. add de-chlorinator to a sample of water and test it.

[Nicole29]

i have 2 other tanks and ammonia is not a problem in either

also i just noticed when i fed my fish that the ram is hungry he wants to eat but can't come up to the surface, so I dropped in 1/2 algae wafer and he readily ate it. The only problem is the anti parasite meds i got don't sink. Do you think this is still the problem or the ammonia is the major culprit??

[JulieC]

If you are still getting any reading but 0 for ammonia, it is a problem.

Have you been performing these large water changes for the life of your tank or did you start this recently? Sometimes if you change too much water it can cause your tank to go into a cycle.

[Nicole29]

my ammonia seems to be at 0 now but my Ram is still looking pretty bad. He is turning black (like my other ram did before he died) and he's still lying on the substrate a little on his side. I'm not sure what to do?

He's also moving all his fins very quickly, but not moving.

[Cathy G]

Did you ever use those fizzy jungle tabs? (With Metro and Prazi...)
If not, I'd use them now.
Cathy

[boulderman1]

you shouldn't ever do 50% water changes, this removes too much of the beneficial bacteria that keeps water healthy, i would recommend 1 25% water change per week, also, if the ammonia is not the problem with the ram, it's gill flukes, i treat it with pimafix, it is mild enough that it nevers bothers my rams but almost always cures them, in your case however, when they're on their side on the bottom, it's almost always too late

P.S. if you don't have any salt in your aquarium, you NEED it, especially if you want to continue keeping rams, it is ESSENTIAL to soft water and keeping infestations at bay, i use close to 1 teaspoon per gallon

good luck!!!

[Cathy G]

This guy is wrong - don't worry about it. Wrong about water changes, wrong about pimafix and gill flukes,wrong about salt and rams. However, the Jungle fizz things do have Praziquantal which does kill gill flukes. The only thing he is right about is that there is not much hope when they get this bad.


Cathy

[boulderman1]

i've been keeping rams for over 5 years now and i think i know a thing or two about them, further, water changes are to be done in moderation, please ask somebody with experience if you don't believe me before you belive Cathy G, 25% percent is optimal because it removes bio-waste (especially if you clean the gravel while you're at it) without disrupting the nitrogen cycle equillibrium that occurs perpetually in any cycled tank, finally salt is an all around remedy for many fish problems and softens water (rams prefer water on the soft side), if you didn't know that cathy then you need to look into it

i don't want this to turn into an argument so do what you think is right nicole and don't believe everything you hear on aquaria central including me if you think i'm wrong because discovering solutions on your own without others' help is the most effetive method of learning anyways

good luck

[Cathy G]

you shouldn't ever do 50% water changes, this removes too much of the beneficial bacteria that keeps water healthy,

Bacteria is not in the water column, its mostly in the filter material. Many many experts on this site not only do 50% a week, some do it 2 times/week. W/C's - how much you change and how many times per week you change it- depend on the fish load in the tank, and on the species of fish themselves.


salt is an all around remedy for many fish problems and softens water

Salt can be a remedy for certain diseases, but there is absolutely no scientific proof that salt is a general health tonic in fresh water aquariums. Many advanced aquariasts have come to the conclusion that salt-as-a-tonic is hyped up advertising.

Furthermore, soft water fishes prefer water with lower total dissolved solids. Your water softener will exchange hard water ions of calcium and magnesium into soft water by replacing those ions with sodium. To a fish however, the sodium is just as undesirable. It is still a dissolved solid in the water.

The proper place for salt in soft water aquariums is fighting ich, and to lessen the chance of nitrite poisoning when a cycle goes awry.

Cathy

[Nicole29]

well I thought things were going ok after using the jungle tabs, he seemed to be swimming more and wasn't near the bottom nearly as much. However, this morning I awoke to find him stuck to the filter intake and dead, so I guess he was still sick. Thank you everyone for trying to help, I really appreciated it.

[sarcare]

Sorry about your ram--that is a terrible thing to have a fish die that you've tried so hard to save. ((hugs))