Confused on water problem

[kraemerwa2003]

I have been cycling my new 20 gallon tank for a week. I have two java ferns and one java moss that has spread like crazy. The problem I am having is that today I checked all of my params again...all normal except the pH, it was too high. Soooo....I used Wardley's pH lower, putting in the recommended dosage, along with ammonia lock, to complete my week one cycling. After a few hours, I came back in, and BAM!! my water is an icky brown/cloudy, and I can't even see the back of it. Tomorrow I will do a 50% water change, but what could have possibly ever caused this? Has this happened to anyone else? I am not new to tanks, but this problem is new...so confused... :confused: :confused: :confused: :help: :eek: :huh:

[CaptnDan]

Could you please be a little more specific on the parameters? It might make it a bit easier to figure out what's going on.

What else is in the tank, other than the plants? In other words, what's your ammonia source? Fish, or manually added, etc...

I pretty much consider the pH adjusting chemicals to be on a level with the 'Spawn of Satan', but it's in there now, so what's done is done.

You had two things happen rapidly, a drop in pH and a drop in ammonia.

I'm guessing a bacterial bloom, or possibly even a mass die off of nitrifying bacteria...?? It's pretty iffy without knowing the ammonia and nitrite levels before the chemical treatments.

Odds are, it'll clear with a series of water changes of 50%.

[SirWired]

I have been cycling my new 20 gallon tank for a week. I have two java ferns and one java moss that has spread like crazy. The problem I am having is that today I checked all of my params again...all normal except the pH, it was too high. Soooo....I used Wardley's pH lower, putting in the recommended dosage, along with ammonia lock, to complete my week one cycling. After a few hours, I came back in, and BAM!! my water is an icky brown/cloudy, and I can't even see the back of it. Tomorrow I will do a 50% water change, but what could have possibly ever caused this? Has this happened to anyone else? I am not new to tanks, but this problem is new...so confused... :confused: :confused: :confused: :help: :eek: :huh:

Don't mess with those pH adjusting chemicals, ever. Usually pH issues are caused by a lack of buffering capacity in the water. If your water has inadequate buffering capacity, your pH may become unstable. Adding acids or bases to adjust the pH will result in wild swings in pH that are harmful or deadly to fish. You must also add those chemicals VERY carefully with every water change. This is a real PITA. Most fish MUCH prefer a stable pH over a "proper" pH.

Also, what do you mean you "added AmmoLock to complete your one week cycling"? AmmoLock's only use is as an emergency measure to save fish from dying when you can't change water during a period of high ammonia. It has NO other use. If you have ANY ammonia in the tank prior to adding the AmmoLock, your cycle is not done, and adding the AmmoLock won't change that. Cycling usually takes a heck of a lot longer than a week unless you use BioSpira or get a filter from an established tank.

In any case, if you are doing a fishy cycle, you REALLY need to reduce Ammonia through water changes, as piling all sorts of chemicals in the water is really stressful to fish.

You need to post all of your parameters here. Also, it is not uncommon for pH to be unstable during a cycle. In any case, maybe a listing of your pH readings over a week would be handy.

You can also ask your LFS to check the GH/KH of your water.

Post all the numbers here.

SirWired

[liv2padl]

pH, it was too high. it would be helpful to know what you mean by "high" and ... what was it before. what's the ph of your tap water. what's the kH of your tap water.


Soooo....I used Wardley's pH lower, putting in the recommended dosage, along with ammonia lock, After a few hours, I came back in, and BAM!! my water is an icky brown/cloudy bingo !!! ammonia lock = bad. wardleys pH lower = bad. water changes followed by leave the tank alone for a week and it'll clear up.

all water supply whether municipal or well contains some concentration of calcium and magnesium (among other cations) which exist as salts of carbonates. hard water has more of these salts than soft water. these carbonates in solution exhibit a phenomona known as "buffering". when an acid is introduced to a water sample containing carbonates, the carbonates react with the acid and neutralize it, releasing carbon dioxide and a small amount of heat. the CO2 is exhausted at the water surface and the net result is no change in your pH. at some point, the carbonate buffer will become exhausted ... at which time, even a small concentration of acid will rapidly drop the pH of your water and kill your fish. simply put, carbonates stabilize the pH as long as they are present in sufficient amounts. when the carbonates become depleted, the pH of your water will plummet rapidly with the introduction of even a small amount of acid, killing fish, plants, and your biofilter. the chemicals sold for "adjusting" the pH of your water downward are typically but not necessarily acids of phosphate. this will add a huge phosphate load to your water resulting an an algae bloom.

also, Sudden pH changes can be quite deadly to some fishes. this is most often due not to the change in pH itself but rather, to the associative concurrent changes in (a) the toxicity of ammonia (which is more toxic at higher pH), (b) nitrite (which is more toxic at low pH) or (c) carbon dioxide (which is also more toxic at low pH and which interferes with normal respiration).

bottom line: leave your pH alone.

[kraemerwa2003]

I have the testing strips, dip em in and it explains it by a little colored pad...pH was in the range of 8.0. On the bottle of Ammonia lock it says to use it when cycling...I know now not to add any of the crap to my tank...doing a 50% change and hopefully that will "clear" up my problem...no pun intended. After extensive and continued research find it is a bacterial bloom...not fun. No idea where the ammonia came from, other than the snails which had attached themselves to the plants at PetsMart. Other than the javas, I have a piece of natural driftwood, some plastic plants from an already established tank, and a fake log cave...

[CaptnDan]

On the bottle of Ammonia lock it says to use it when cycling
If you're doing a fishy cycle, and weren't able to do a water change. Still bad IMO, but that's just an opinion.


No idea where the ammonia came from, other than the snails
Doesn't seem like they should put out much ammonia. Do you feed them? Could be decomposing uneaten food.

Ammonia isn't bad in a cycling tank, in fact, without it, the tank can't cycle...

[kraemerwa2003]

nope, no food for the nasty boogers, I didn't want them, as soon as I collect them all, they are grub for my puffers...little guys love em :D No fishy cycle...oh well, I will definitely be cycling it for a while longer, another month...

[SirWired]

You should probably pick up a reagent-based test kit. The dip-strips are notoriously inaccurate and hard to read. Most folks here seem to like the Aquarium Pharm. Freshwater Master Test Kit. Under $20 at Petsmart if you print out their website price before you go and ask the store to price match.

SirWired

[kraemerwa2003]

awesome, thanks for the help guys...I cycled my 10 gallon and didn't have this problem, kinda upset. I have had tanks my entire life, and this has NEVER happened before...

[CaptnDan]

Just a second here...

You have an established tank? If so, you can grab a bit of filter media from it and put it in the flter of the new one, add an ammonia source to keep things percolating and you should be up and running in short order.

[kraemerwa2003]

well that would be awesome, I will see if I can pull some carbon out and filter sponge out and move it over...right now, the new tank is the least of my worries. I already had aaround 40 guppy fry, and then my female exploded today with another 40 or so fry :thud: :eek: :eek:

[kraemerwa2003]

I did a whole bunch of research and found that I have "green water" Due to the excessive sunlight that we have had, and the fact my brat brother keeps turning on my tank light, it has finally taken over. Solution: no light for a week. water changes won't do anything...gotta get my nitrates down from 10 ppm to 0, even though I have no idea where they are coming from...

[Hound]

Well, if you had ammonia in the aquarium then you possibly had some bacteria break it down into nitrites and then some other bacteria break it down into nitrates. 10ppm of nitrates is not bad for an aquarium. Heck it's right where my tap water is. Nitrates in an aquarium that is cycled is of course normal and is one of the reasons for water changes. As far as your ph being 8 its possible that your test strips are just off. It is also possible that the ph of your tap water is also around 8. Have you tried testing your tap water? Also I don't see anything in your post about what sort of substrate you have. Certain substrates and even filter materials will buffer your kh and cause your ph to rise naturally. At least you know why your tank was cloudy now so thats a good thing.

[kraemerwa2003]

I have natural gravel substrate...purchased at my lfs and I soaked and strained it before I added it in. reading into the green water, it says that a sudden bloom of the algae spores can be caused by the ppm of nitrates being 10. That's what mine is...it also could be that I have well water versus sewer water...I will check my tap and see if that's where my problem could lie.

Params are as follows for tap water:

Nitrate: 20 ppm
Nitrite: .25 ppm
GH: 300 ppm
KH: 300 ppm
pH: 8.4

params for green tank:

Nitrate: 10 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
GH: 300
KH: 300
pH: 8.1

[CaptnDan]

it also could be that I have well water versus sewer water....
I sure hope so... LOL OK, I know what you meant... City & Sewer vs Well & Septic. Sorry, I couldn't resist....


water changes won't do anything...gotta get my nitrates down
Actually, water changing is exactly how you get the nitrates down.

So I'm still not exactly sure what you are really doing at this point. Are you trying to get this tank to cycle so you can keep fish in it? You really need to put in a source of Ammonia so the bacteria can get established.

Might just be that I missed something.... It's been known to happen. :)

[kraemerwa2003]

lol...sorry, I know nothing about our set-up...lol...I will go and buy a bacterial supply tonight, raining like hell out here, not leaving until tonight...any good products that you would suggest?

[CaptnDan]

Params are as follows for tap water:

Nitrate: 20 ppm
Nitrite: .25 ppm
GH: 300 ppm
KH: 300 ppm
pH: 8.4

params for green tank:

Nitrate: 10 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
GH: 300
KH: 300
pH: 8.1

Wow... There's more Nitrates in that tap water than in my (slightly overstocked) 55g tank. I do a water change whenever it hits 10ppm. And the Nitrites too?

Looking at those numbers, you can sure tell what the algae is feeding on. Normally, water changes are done to reduce the Nitrates - but that which passes for water where you live would raise the nitrates in the tanks of many people here.

I'd be looking into a way to treat the water before it went into the tank if that was my water.

[kraemerwa2003]

I have a water treater. I treat the water in a bucket, then pour it in... :huh: :huh: :huh:

[CaptnDan]

I have a water treater. I treat the water in a bucket, then pour it in... :huh: :huh: :huh:

That makes it a bit more of a job I bet, but I'm glad to hear that you're on top of it.