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View Full Version : Kindly help a newbie not kill any more fish...



erichegloff
10-23-2006, 10:32 PM
Hi all,
I'm fairly new to the aquarium hobby. I have a question about fish loss that I'm hoping that someone can help me with, because I'm at a loss for reasons as to why they died.
Background: I have a 20 gal "Aqua" brand glass tank that I bought about 5 weeks ago from a newly open LFS that I am trying to get fish into. I purchased the tank and filled it with a natural pebble type gravel (bought at a gardening store, but rated for aquarium use) and some bigger rocks (from the same store) to start. It has a new Emperor 280 filter and a Whisper 20 air pump with fine bubbles for aeration. The pebbles and rocks were rinsed thoroughly and once the filter was set up, I began to condition the water. I put in Tetra AquaSafe (which I use to dechlorinate for my 6 gal) and dosages of Cycle per the label to initialize the biology in the tank. I used a small amount of goldfish food (which proved very potent) to start up the ammonia. After about 2 weeks of cycling at 79 degrees initially down to 77, I decided it was time to add a fish. I had seen ammonia up, then nitrate and then adjusted them down to 0 or close with a decent (30-40%) water change and AmQuel+. I thought I had lucked out and gotten a really quick cycle.
All readings were reasonable. pH 7.5, Am: >.25, nitrate 0, GH 7.5, KH 9. I added my "prize" (not literally) goldfish that I had very successfully used to help cycle my 6 gallon. It was a common goldfish won at a fair that had thrived in my 6 gallon. The fish was dead in a matter of 2-3 hours. Symptoms will follow at bottom.
After the goldfish died, I changed all the water, replaced it with fresh conditioned water (Tetra AquaSafe), and I took out the bigger rocks. I changed 1 of the 2 disposable filters as I wanted to keep some bacteria; I rinsed the remaining filter well in healthy used aquarium water from 6 gal tank. I took my gravel level down from about 2" to 3/4' to 1", rinsed the remaining gravel well in healthy used aquarium water and added some silk plants and a sandstone and some maylasian driftwood. I added a bacteria sample from my LFS and used Biozyme to supplement this time. After about 2-3 weeks, my test kit showed ammonia up then down then nitrate with 7.4ish pH, Am: >.25, NO2 0, KH 6 and GH 7.5.
I want a tetra and rasbora tank, so I introduced one X Ray Tetra from LFS. The pH there is 7.4 and I got a bacterial sample from him to start, so I figured stress would be at a minimum. The fish was dead in about 4 hours.
Both fish died the same exact way. Once introduced, the fish looked healthy and happy to have the space, swimming and zipping. Then the fish got a little sluggish. Both fish congregated near the tank intake/output (hard to say which since it's the same area). The sluggishness progressed. Then the fish moved back out into the open. It would zip to the top, grab some air, then go back down. At this time, there was visible gill swelling with a consistant purple/red gill color. After a while, the fish keeps to the top for air. Eventually the fish will be nearly vertical to try to get to the top, but to no avail, and then eventually sinks to the bottom to meet it's end. To put it bluntly, it looks like the fish has sudden overwhelming gill damage and loses motor control eventually until death.
I don't want to lose any more fish. I tansferred the fish back to my regular tank, but the symptoms are so sudden that it was too late for both.
I have a TetraTest liquid test kit that I think is very reliable based on use in my 6 gal. Neither times of introduction showed levels to be alarmed about using the tests in this kits.

Any ideas as to why this is happening would be much appreciated. I am suspect of some sort of chemical toxicity since the death is so fast, but I cannot be sure since all my tests come up negative. My last few suspects are:
-The gravel. Perhaps it leaches an undetectable (with my kit) toxin.
-The filter. Too much flow? It certainly does not underperform.
- The aquarium. I rinsed it well twice and never used soap, but perhaps the glass had a toxin on it or the silicone seal is somehow toxic?

I don't intend on any new fish until I can verify what killed these two. Thanks for your help.

fish_freak
10-23-2006, 10:59 PM
You havent posted you nitrIte levels. Ammonia converts to Nitrite then Nitrate. Also how old is your Ammonia test kit? From your discription it certianly sounds like ammonia or nitrite poisining. The fact that your nitrate is also 0 in all your tests makes me lean towards nitrites. You should have some nitrate in your tank if your tank is fully cycled then you will ussually maintain a level of about .10-.20 nitrate with regular water changes which is perfectly acceptable.

wataugachicken
10-24-2006, 8:50 AM
cycle is one of those "snake oil" products that doesn't really work. biozyme is the same. it puts enzymes into your water that the bacteria can feed off of, but it doesn't put any actual bacteria in there. without bacteria, the enzymes are useless. the only product that can actually live up to that claim is biospira, a refrigerated product that contains tank bacteria kept dormant by the cold temps. add it to your tank, they wake up, and start eating the ammonia right away. it's expensive though, and directions have to be followed exactly.

the breathing trouble and red gills are a definite sign of ammonia and nitrite poisoning. nitrites are toxic, but near the end of your cycle a second type of bacteria changes them into nitrates, which are safe for the fish at normal (below 20ppm) levels. keep feeding food to imaginary fish and testing the water. once nitrates appear you are very close to your goal.

jennfier
10-24-2006, 9:30 AM
Try to get a liquid test kit if you are using strips. I use API (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) Master Test Kit ($13.50 at Petsmart if you bring a printout of their online price - best deal ever).

You need to know Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate & pH. I agree that it sounds like Ammonia or Nitrite poisoning. Before adding fish, these should be your readings: Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10-20. You should also have seen a spike in Ammonia and Nitrite before they came back down to 0 on their own, not due to water change.

Double check on your rocks too and make sure they haven't been dipped or contaminated with any industrial chemical before you acquired them.

SirWired
10-24-2006, 12:03 PM
I think I see at least one problem: You are adding Ammoinia / food source at the beginning, and waiting for all of it to disappear. This won't work. Why? By the time the NitrIte-eating bacteria finish eating all the NitrIte, the bacteria that produce the NitrItes have already died off due to lack of more Ammoinia to eat.

Whatever you do, the only thing you should be adding to the tank is water, dechlor, an Ammonia source (either rotting shrimp, or daily doses of Ammonia or fish food), and maybe filter media from an established tank. Don't add AmmoLock, BioZyme, Cycle, salt, AmQuel+, 'nuthin. If your tank cannot hold Ammonia and NitrItes at zero with a DAILY dose of Ammonia, it just plain isn't ready. You will know your tank is good to go when you can take it from 5ppm of Ammonia down to ZERO Ammonia, ZERO NitrItes in 24hrs.

SirWired

erichegloff
10-25-2006, 12:04 PM
Hi all -- thanks for the responses!
I wrote "nitrate" when I meant "nitrite". NO2 is what I'm testing for. Sorry, I was in a hurry to get a post out. NitrIte is what I have been testing for, and I will get a nitrate test as well to be sure.
The reason I only let the Ammonia spike once and then back down was because right after I saw it 0 out and nitrites were "safe", I figured putting fish in would provide the Am. after that. However, this obviously didn't work and is not the way to go.
Well I guess I'm just getting a little antsy then with this 20 gallon, and it's already cost my favorite fish and another their lives, which I can't stand, so I'm gonna take the advice y'all gave me and kick it down a notch and leg the cycling out a bit. I'm going to start all over again and take all of your advice (THANK YOU). Maybe I'll look into the Bio-Spira, but probably only if I can't get the cycle started elsewise because none of my LFSs carry it and I don't really trust the mail order sites since I live in CA and it can be hot on those mail trucks.
I use the TetraTest liquid reagent kit. I trust it to be very effective and accurate; it has never let me down with my 6 gal, which I test religiously and is very delicate (fast swings in Am and NO2) because it is so small of a tank. However it is now clear I need to test for nitrates as well if for nothing more than to be safe. I've read that nitrate testing doesn't necessarily need to be done, but I won't take that chance anymore.
I'm still concerned about a phantom toxicity of some sort since they keeled over so fast on me. Also, a friend suggested lack of O2 (which would be pretty odd to me since I have a very fine 6" bubble wall with Whisper 20 pump and a 280 gph filter on a 20 gal tank - lots of surface disruption). Any merit to either of those ideas?
Ah, well, the cycle begins again. Another night of working for the fish after 8 hours of working for the man...
Thanks again for all of your help. My future fish that I don't manage to kill will thank you.