Please help..

[Chris76]

Hello everyone!! I found this site doing a search and was hoping someone can help me out.. I recently bought a 5 gallon hex tank for my 4yr old. I had the water in the tank for 2 days with the heater and bio wheel thing running. Today we bought 2 tiger barbs and 2 red barbs. 3 of the barbs are actively swimming and having fun all together. There is one red barb that has been sitting by itself at the bottom of the tank all day. At first they seemed shy and hid in the plants. Some artifical some live.. The 3 have since came out to look at us but that one is just hidden in the back. Does anyone have any idea on whats going on? Could that one be sick?

Also my water has gotten green and cloudy over the course of 5 hours.. Anyone know what that is? Any help would be greatly appreciated.. Thanks

[fishcatch22]

how long did you cycle the tank? is it even cycled? you can't have either of those fish you have in any volume in a 5G tank. best off to return them. also, we need more info to get a proper diaganosis on the barb. how does it look? any odd marks, protrusions, ect?

[Chris76]

What does cycle mean?? I had the tank sitting for 2 days with the heater and water running.. The pet store associate(Petsmart) said that those are the only types of fish I can have in a 5 gallon tank because they dont get real big..

[fishcatch22]

you have to return your fish because your tank is not cycled. read this article for more info:http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81388

[Blueiz]

Hey Chris76, welcome to AC!

Heres a link that will explain all about cycling.
http://aquafacts.net/wiki/index.php/Cycling_a_Freshwater_Tank

Also as FC22 said, the fish that you have arent really suitable for a 5 g tank.

Blue

[Chris76]

Sorry but I have NEVER had a fish tank before so I have no idea what cycling means.. I was only told to have the tank run for 24 hours or more before getting fish and thats what I did.. All of the fish seem fine except for the one.. Now if these fish are no good for the tank what kind of fish should I get?? I was told these are suitable but I dont want to have fish that are going to be too big..

[Rbishop]

First, welcome to the forums and a very enjoyable hobby, for adults and children!

1) Fish brought into a new tank are experiencing stress due to the handling and transportation, and normally take a while to acclimate to a new setting and water conditions.

2) Some fish handle this easier than others and not all fish you get at an LFS (local fish store) are as healthy as they should be.

3) Most help at an LFS are not knowledgable like they should be and will tell you most anything, along with sell you anything, for a profit.

4) Your tank has not been properly cycled to support life. Fish produce waste, mainly ammonia. This can kill your fish or stress them out and invite disease. Ammonis decomposes to nitrites, another bad item for fish.

When setting up a tank, we normally do a fishless cycle or a fishey cycle. This establishes the bacteria that will convert ammonia to nitrites, and nitrites to nitrates. The nitrates are removed by water changes.

I'll post a few links here, and after you review them, you can post specific questions so we can help you better.


http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84598

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42633

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85182

Please get back to us quickly!

[Chris76]

Thanks for the help and the welcome . I dont want to hurt the little guys.. I didnt know anything about cycling so I will read up on that..

[fishcatch22]

so, chris76, your best bet would be to return the fish you bought, because your tank is uncycled and they will grow too big and will have aggression problems, and then after your tank has cycled, consult us for advice on which fish to get. NEVER listen to any pet store. they lie like rugs and only want to sell crap to you 90% of the time.

[aardvark1]

NEVER listen to any pet store. they lie like rugs and only want to sell crap to you 90% of the time.Wouldn't go that far!

Sure you may get some bogus info, secret is to do some research so you can winnow out the BS. Here and other sites are a good place to start!

Once you do find a good LFS, nurture them!

[fishcatch22]

Wouldn't go that far!

Sure you may get some bogus info, secret is to do some research so you can winnow out the BS. Here and other sites are a good place to start!

Once you do find a good LFS, nurture them!sorry, i've been told some really bad advice by those places and I have a sore spot about it... you're right, but always err on the side of caution and don't take thier advice unless you know they're telling the truth and not streching it.

[aardvark1]

secret is to do some research so you can winnow out the BS.

As I said!

:dance2: :read:

[fishcatch22]

As I said!

:dance2: :read:of course! :D

[Chris76]

Hi again. Today I relucantly returned the fish. The girl that was there tonight told me that whoever told me that they were good for my 5g didnt know what she was talking about.. They also tested the water and it was fine.. She told me to do a water change and let it sit for a few days. She said to come back on Friday or Saturday and she told me to get guppies or mollies but for mollies I can only get 2. I bought some water conditioner and some testing strips.. I dumped the old water. Did about 20 rinses with the gravel. It was yucky in there.. And I added the clean water and changed the filter.. I put in the water conditioner and after about 2 hours dipped the strips in.. Here are my results. nitrate 0 nitite 0 ppm hardness 120 ppm alkaline 180 ph 8.4 amonia .50.. Are these numbers ok and what exactly do they mean. Thanks for your help.

[Marinemom]

When you dumped the old water, how much did you change out? Usually with a water change we only change out a certain percentage say 15%-20% of the total volume of water. You will want to keep some of the tank water in the tank because that along with the filter, the gravel, the walls of the aquarium and the decorations will have bacteria on it that the fish need. During a cycle this bacteria is dangerous to the fish because it has not been converted to the good bacteria yet. In a cycle you will get 2-3 weeks of ammonia and then the ammonia will go down to 0. After that you will see a rise in nitrites which is also very bad for the fish and can poison them. You will see this for another 2-3 weeks. Then it will bottom out and it will be 0. Then you may start to see nitrates in your water which is fine for the fish as long as it does not get too high. Usually if the nitrates are 20 or below it is considered safe for the fish. According to your readings you still have some ammonia in your water. You want all of the levels to be sitting at 0 right now so then you can add a fish or two depending on what you get. You will have to check your water on a daily basis throughout the cycle and do a partial water change if the levels get to high so that it will be safe for your fish to live in. After you are cycled you can think about tank mates for whatever fish you have in the tank but only if your tank can support that bio-load. With the size tank that you have it will only support a few small fish maybe three of four at the most again depending on the fish that you choose.

Hope this helps.

Marinemom

[CoreyMac]

Chris, here goes. When you first set up a tank you will have good water test results. After some ammonia builds up you will get a spike in ammonia, followed by a spike in nitrite, then you will eventually see nitrates. This process will take a few weeks. Now, you can do a fishy cycle - that is - cycling your tank with fish in there, but you will want to get some tough fish such as the danio, and will want to do daily water changes. You may have to change 50% of the water in your tank daily to keep the ammonia levels low enough to keep the fish alive. You can also cycle the tank without fish in there. Read up on those things in the links given above.

A few guppies would be fine in your 5G. I think that a Gourami would be fine, though I don't think you would want to put much else in there. I can't really tell tou about stocking yet... I am still learning that part.

[Marinemom]

I would not do 50% water changes every day unless the readings are insanely high. It will slow the cycle down to much. A better way to cycle might be with the use of a product called bio-spira in which case you can add all of the fish at the same time. You will need to make sure that where you purcahased the bio-spira from that it was kept refrigerated or all of the good bacteria in the product will have been destroyed. Also make sure that you refrigerate it until you use it. You will still need to test your water on a daily basis to make sure that the levels are where they should be and be ready to do a partial water change ASAP if necessary.

Marinemom

[fishcatch22]

also, don't talk to the petsmart people or listen to any of their advice. they only, and I repeat ONLY want to sell you something there. your tank is too small for mollies, though you could do 3-4 guppies. my reccomendation is that you stop buying fish from petsmart, and never take thier advice.

[Blueiz]

I would not do 50% water changes every day unless the readings are insanely high. It will slow the cycle down to much. A better way to cycle might be with the use of a product called bio-spira in which case you can add all of the fish at the same time. You will need to make sure that where you purcahased the bio-spira from that it was kept refrigerated or all of the good bacteria in the product will have been destroyed. Also make sure that you refrigerate it until you use it. You will still need to test your water on a daily basis to make sure that the levels are where they should be and be ready to do a partial water change ASAP if necessary.

Marinemom
Changing water does NOT slow the cycle of a tank. Bacteria only grow so fast. Because you have a hi level of ammonia or nitrite does not mean it will make the bacteria grow faster. If you are doing a fishy cycle, the amount of water changed and the frequency of changes should be such that the ammonia and or nitrite levels are kept at or below .25. This means you will have to test your water often to determine when changes need to be done.

As far as testing. The test strips are no good for precise measurements when cycling a tank. You really should get a liquid ammonia and nitrite test kit. Aquarium pharmaceuticals is a great brand that is really simple to use.

HTH
Blue

[CaptnDan]

as an add-on to the above info... If you are able to get a test kit from PetSmart, you can print out their web ad for the kit and they are supposed to match the price.

The Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Freshwater Master Test Kit is pretty much the standard around here. Easy to use, and actually seems to be cheaper than strips in the long run.

Good luck with the tank - and if you follow the advice about cycling that was provided, you should be able to stock your tank and actually keep the fish you buy instead of having them die off quickly, as is often the problem when starting out.

Once you get it going, don't dump everything, filter media, etc... all at once. It will set you back to square one...

[Marinemom]

I am not here to argue with anyone especially online. I am just giving my opinion as I see it and have experienced it through the years. Take it or leave it.

Marinemom

[CaptnDan]

Here are my results. nitrate 0 nitite 0 ppm hardness 120 ppm alkaline 180 ph 8.4 amonia .50.. Are these numbers ok and what exactly do they mean. Thanks for your help.Well, the numbers are fine for tap water... but they definitely point to something you may want to look into...

You are reading .5 Ammonia - and this is in a tank with no fish, and you just cleaned everything quite thoroughly if I understood you correctly. In other words, no ammonia source. What you want to do is read the water conditioner bottle that you have... Make sure it removes not only chlorine, but chloramine as well.

Many municipalities are going to chloramine as a way to disinfect water. This means that they are adding ammonia, bound with the Chlorine. It's more stable and actually more efficient for them. The trouble it could cause for us is that if you neutralize the chlorine, the ammonia is set free.

Some conditioners "lock up" the ammonia, your test kit can still see it, but it isn't as harmful to the fish.

What kind of Water Conditioner are you using?

[YoFishboy]

also, don't talk to the petsmart people or listen to any of their advice. they only, and I repeat ONLY want to sell you something there. your tank is too small for mollies, though you could do 3-4 guppies. my reccomendation is that you stop buying fish from petsmart, and never take thier advice.


While it is often hard to find good advice, in large chain stores or local fish shops, we need to remember that "your mileage may vary". So much depends on how important the local manager feels a well-trained fish room staff is. I, as well as others have had some good experiences at Petsmart, and I am sure others have at other chain stores as well. I'm sorry that you local Petsmart staff wasn't as well trained, but let's not "throw the baby out with the bathwater".....or, in this case, the water change...happy shopping everyone! As one earlier poster stated, proper research before you buy is your best bet!

[Chris76]

Thanks everyone for your help.. Here area ew responses to your questions to me..

CaptnDan the conditioner I am using is Top Fin Water Conditioner.. I also have the Tap Water Dechlorinator as well. I didnt know if they were the same thing with a different name.. The water conditioner says cholrine and cholarmine on it. The test strips I am using is by Mardel. It is a Master Test Kit it tests ph, harndess, alkalinity, nitrite, nitrate and ammonia.

I did a 100% water change meaning I dupmed and put more in dumped again put more in.. I kept doing that until the water was clear then I redid the decorations that I have in the tank.. I have live plants as well as artificial and a little hide out but not enought that the tank is cluttered.. I have an Eclipse Hex 5 tank with a Bio Wheel.. I replaced the filter but today when I got home I noticed some green yucky looking stuff on it.. I have no idea what that is.. I have a heater in there also..

As far as pet stores go Petsmart is the closest one to me and thats almost a 25 minute drive. There is a Petco that is about 15 minutes away but all of their fish look half dead and I dont want half dead fish.. Where I live there arent alot of pet stores and Im not willing to drive more than 15 minutes from the house with a bag of fish in the car and a 4yr old holding it.. Eek.. All I will do is take the advice you guys give me and get the fish there knowing that at least this time Im getting what I should get..

I have read the links on cycling as well as doing a few searches on my own and I think I will wait till next week to get the fish instead of this weekend.. I want to make sure everything is smooth so that I dont kill the fish..

I really do appreciate everyones advice and help.. Ive never done this before and I thought all you had to do was put water in the tank add fish and call it a day.. lol Who knew having fish was so much work?? lol :thud:

[WrittenLyric]

Hi Chris and welcome :)

The hardest part about keeping a tank is really the set up and beginning. Once all your water levels balance out through the cycle, it's really a pretty easy routine. The waiting period is really the killer, you're so psyched about having a tank you automatically just want to throw everything in and start populating the tank. Patience is the key and once you're past that, it's pretty much feedings and water changes after that.

Good luck and don't hesitate to ask any questions here that you may have. This board has helped me set up and maintain a great tank.

[CoreyMac]

CaptnDan the conditioner I am using is Top Fin Water Conditioner.. I also have the Tap Water Dechlorinator as well. I didnt know if they were the same thing with a different name.. The water conditioner says cholrine and cholarmine on it.

That's where the ammonia is coming from. You will want to get a product that conditions for chlorine, chloramine, AND ammonia. The breakdown of chloramine is leaving ammonia behind.

[CaptnDan]

The test strips I am using is by Mardel. It is a Master Test Kit it tests ph, harndess, alkalinity, nitrite, nitrate and ammonia.When you run out of testing materials, I would highly recommend going with a liquid kit, the kind where you drop the reagent in from a dropper bottle. They are dfar more accurate and reliable, and in the long run, I have found it to be cheaper as well. If you print the page from petsmart.com with the price, they are supposed to match it, meaning you can get the AP Master Test kit for about half price.

As far as pet stores go Petsmart is the closest one to me and thats almost a 25 minute drive.I have never had a problem with PetSmart, and neither have a lot of other people I know around the 'net. Just remember when reading posts that some people get a little overly enthusiastic about their dislike for a particular store, and seem to think that a bad experience they may have had is the way it is in every store in that chain, world wide. Of all the stores in the area here, PetSmart has by far the best guarantee on fish, and the most liberal return policy on products that you may decide you don't need/want/like.

and Im not willing to drive more than 15 minutes from the house with a bag of fish in the car and a 4yr old holding it.. Eek.. Can't blame you there... LOL

Ive never done this before and I thought all you had to do was put water in the tank add fish and call it a day.. lol A lot of people do just that... But they tend to suffer a lot of fish losses too. When you get a minute, check out the thread (sticky) at the top here called "We never used to cycle tanks". Buy the tank and fish at the same time used to be the way it was done.... The guarantee on fish was usually 24 hours back then too.

Who knew having fish was so much work?? lol :thud:It's only when you're getting started, after it's set up, it becomes a piece of cake. Good thing too, I am taking care of with more on the way...

[Chris76]

OK here is an update.. I had changed everything out on Monday as I had earlier stated.. I have been checking the levels and everything stayed the same but the ammonia went down to .25.. Today I did a water change. Not a full one but a little less than half. I did this at 5 when I got home and just dipped the stick in and all the other readings are the same except the ammonia. That is now at zero.. I also took your advice CaptnDan and printed out and bought the Master Kit from the Aqua Pharamceticuls I think it was that you said and I bought that. That thing was 30 bucks originally.. I saved 15 bucks by bringing it that print out.. Thanks a bunch..

OK so whats next now?? While we were at the pet store I saw some real pretty turquoise tailed guppies.. The girl at the store (same from the night I brought the fish back) said those will be a good choice for my tank. I liked those and the yellow and red tailed ones also.. I was also wondering if I could get away with a platy?? Or will they get too big..

[fishcatch22]

OK here is an update.. I had changed everything out on Monday as I had earlier stated.. I have been checking the levels and everything stayed the same but the ammonia went down to .25.. Today I did a water change. Not a full one but a little less than half. I did this at 5 when I got home and just dipped the stick in and all the other readings are the same except the ammonia. That is now at zero.. I also took your advice CaptnDan and printed out and bought the Master Kit from the Aqua Pharamceticuls I think it was that you said and I bought that. That thing was 30 bucks originally.. I saved 15 bucks by bringing it that print out.. Thanks a bunch..

OK so whats next now?? While we were at the pet store I saw some real pretty turquoise tailed guppies.. The girl at the store (same from the night I brought the fish back) said those will be a good choice for my tank. I liked those and the yellow and red tailed ones also.. I was also wondering if I could get away with a platy?? Or will they get too big..you could do a trio of guppies or a pair of platies IMO, but make sure they're the same gender.