Is there a fertilizer that won't mess with PH?

[Pheintz]

I have some old Plantabbs but it says they will change my PH. I'd like to give my plants a boost but don't want to stress the fish by changing the chemistry too much.

[plah831]

using powdered dry ferts will not affect pH. Flourish's line of fertilizers also do not affect pH. I use both with no problems :)

[shoe]

I have some old Plantabbs but it says they will change my PH. I'd like to give my plants a boost but don't want to stress the fish by changing the chemistry too much.

Pheintz, thanks for asking that question as it interests me as well.
What in fertilizers actually affects the pH?

But more important for me is gH (hardness). Since fertilizers have Iron AND that counts against total hardness (my electronic gH tester can't differentiate against iron and I suspect less Iron has more influence on gH readings than calcium/magnesium at the same PPM proportion), I'm wondering just how much of an influence my fert is on gH.

I would imagine over time the levels of Iron would increase within the tank so that after many partial water changes, it would be concentrated...

Allow me to back up! I do RO/DI water and must treat my water to restore what I took out. That involves testing gH and adding elements until I reach my desired gH target. If over time I have a concentration of Iron in the tank, I'd not need to add as much KENT RO RIGHT (for example) to attain my target gH level. I assume this is bad for my tank (my fish anyway).

So I suppose I should really be asking:
1) How much influence does Iron have in my tank?
2) Should I ignore Iron when working towards my gH target?
3) How fast is Iron consumed by my plants (assuming in a well planted tank)?
4) Is there a good possibility I might have an Iron build up?
5) Is Iron a good gH substitute for calcium/magnesium?

[Squawkbert]

Basic chemistry - go find & review.

Until you've had time to do that, know that pH swings are a function of what you add to the tank vs. the tank's buffering capacity.

If you add a little phosphoric acid to a tank that has seen nothing but RO/DI and a week's worth of poop from one danio, you should expect a big pH drop. In an established tank that has seen a fair amount of stuff added over time, you'll have some excess PO4 anions from ferts and natural sources in there, little to no pH change when there's common ion effect (buffering capacity) in play. To see how this works mathematically, review some acid/base equilibria problems from your old G-Chem books or google same.

Then, if you're interested in not just winging pH control, go get accurate levels for all of your anions (phosphate, nitrate especially) and a pH reading. Do the math and try the result on a small aliquot of tank water using a measured amount of an approptiate acid or base whose concentration is well known. Keep in mind that water changes and livestock will alter your buffer capacity over time, so you'll have to repeat this routine periodically.

I know this is long winded, but the only universally corrrect answer to "Will adding X cause a big change in my pH?" is "That depends on what's already in the tank."

re: So I suppose I should really be asking:
1) How much influence does Iron have in my tank?
2) Should I ignore Iron when working towards my gH target?
3) How fast is Iron consumed by my plants (assuming in a well planted tank)?
4) Is there a good possibility I might have an Iron build up?
Iron tests spread out over a few weeks will shed some light on all of these questions.
5) Is Iron a good gH substitute for calcium/magnesium?
I'm pretty sure the answer to this one is "no".

[shoe]

Ahh, this explains part of pH question (at least for the fertilizer I use):

ferro vit contains, among other things, iron in a chelated depot form easily absorbed by water plants. In this depot form, the iron is released into the water as needed and so is available to the plants in bivalent form.
To increase the effectiveness, hw ferro vit contains, in addition to iron, also the following plant absorbable trace elements: Magnesium, manganese, copper, molybdenum, zinc, boron, iodine, fluorine, caesium, strontium, nickel, cobalt, chromium, bismuth and vanadiumElements in my fertilizer (besides Iron) add to gH but not sure I recognize anything there to affect pH (other than the buffering affects added by the gH enhancing elements).

[shoe]

Basic chemistry - go find & review.And just how does this help?

[Squawkbert]

The goal is to aid those who are sick of guessing at how much of what will change their pH... just a direction pointer.

[twig]

Plants eat iron, no? :o

[Pheintz]

Thanks, Paula.

Is Flourish something I will find at the LFS or am I more likely to find it at a garden center? The LFSs around here don't seem to carry much in the way of aquatic plant care.

My dGh is 4 and my PH is 7.2 out of the tap. Just the other day I checked my readings and ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are all 0 and my PH had dropped to 6.8. I am thinking the plants are using all the nitrates and I do occationally get slightly cloudy water as a result (phosphates?). I have alot of large Java fern, an Aponogeton that grows so fast it's scary, a Cryptochoryne that continually seems to grow and then turn brown and die off (had it for years and it always manages to come back. lol), and a plant with red arrowhead shaped leaves that I haven't positively identified yet but seems to be doing ok (it was a bulb). I also have several of those bulbs you get from Walmart and Petco still waiting to sprout. I am thinking the 3 medium size pieces of driftwood I have in there probably caused the ph drop.

I am using the standard flourescent lighting that came with the new hood so have been trying to stick with plants that don't need alot of light. Have not seen any major algae yet (just a little forming on the fake plants) and what little I have seen the algae consuming fish seem to be taking care of. It is usually that ugly brown slimy stuff, too.

I had considered just dosing with some nitrate but thought a regular fertilizer might be better.

[shoe]

Pheintz,
Please forgive my ignorance but how do the planttabs affect your pH?
Is there a specific ingredient you (or the manufacturer) are siting?

You mentioned 'phosphates' somewhere along the way but not sure I read i to be a component of your tablets.

[Pheintz]

Plantabbs

"Ingredients:
Nitrogen, phosphoric acid, potash

Guaranteed Analysis:
11 percent total nitrogen
4.9 percent ammoniacal nitrogen
6.1 percent nitrate nitrogen
15 percent available phosphoric acid
20 percent soluble potash

pH reaction is slightly acidic. If your water is naturally acidic, a neutralizer should be used."

Taken from http://www.aquariumguys.com/plantabbs.html as I don't have the box with me and I am not home right now.

I have not used any in my tank because of the PH thing. The phosphates, from what I understand, can cloud the water and cause an algae bloom when all the nitrates are being used by the plants. If this is wrong, someone more knowledgeable can feel free to correct me. I am fairly new at keeping live plants (or at least keeping them happy/alive), am definately not a chemist (though I do treat the water and test the parameters), and in my tank the fish come first and I am wary of making too drastic of a change.

[Pheintz]

From another site; "Phosphate as a by-product of mineralization of dead matter such as plants, bacteria, feces, uneaten food, algae, fish slime etc. are all internal contributors. Replacement water can also contain phosphate, sometimes surprisingly high concentrations, even if RO units are in use." Just google "aquarium phosphates" and you should get some more detailed explanations. The one I just quoted is from Algone.

[kcooley]

liquid gold does not affect Ph

[Squawkbert]

Replacement water can also contain phosphate, sometimes surprisingly high concentrations, even if RO units are in use."

Only if your RO is a total POS.

Any protein dumped into water contributes to phosphate and nitrogen...

[plah831]

Thanks, Paula.

Is Flourish something I will find at the LFS or am I more likely to find it at a garden center? The LFSs around here don't seem to carry much in the way of aquatic plant care.

I have not seen any stores carry Flourish line of products. I always order them online.

[kcooley]

all but two LFS i have been to here sell flourish proucts.

[plah831]

all but two LFS i have been to here sell flourish proucts.
you're very lucky, then. I've never seen a store carry them, or any good plant substrates.

[debaric]

he he he he ehhehhe heh huh huh huh huh huh.... your name is shoe

[plantbrain]

Stop this. Go to www.gregwatson.com

Order:

KNO3, this adds NO3 and K
KH2PO4, this adds PO4 and a little K(you do not need much PO4)
Plantex CMS + B
GH booster

That's about all you need.
2-4lbs of KNO3
1lb KH2PO4
1 lb CMS+B
2lb GH booster

Baking soda will adjust the KH.

Tell the tank size and whether or not you use CO2 or not.
From there I can tell you a very simple routine that will add precisely what you need for plant growth.

The cost will be less than about anything you can buy that's brand name for one item, let alone all of the items plants need for growth.

I think shipping cost more than the ferts from Greg.
And that amount would last a 125 gallon tank 1-3 years or so.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[Captain Hook]

Are those plant tabs being dissolved and used as water column fertilizers? That's not a good idea with the "ammoniacal" stuff in it. If they're buried in the substrate, I'd suspect there would be very little to no effect on the pH of the water.

I don't believe that iron significantly contributes to GH. shoe could it be a TDS meter?
I've never heard of an electronic GH tester before but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

[shoe]

he he he he ehhehhe heh huh huh huh huh huh.... your name is shoe

I step in a lot of fish poo :sad:


:)

[shoe]

I don't believe that iron significantly contributes to GH. shoe could it be a TDS meter? I've never heard of an electronic GH tester before but that doesn't mean they don't exist.The meter I use is:PINPOINT Conductivity Monitor (http://www.americanmarineusa.com/conductivitymonitor.html)

and as the link implies, tests conductivity (which is impled to directly correlate to hardness - not a chemist enough here to know whether non-conductive materials add to water hardness)

From my standpoint, even small quantities of Iron should thow off my readings since it such a conductive material.

(As a side note, wondering why Iron doesn't 'rust' in the tank and therefore become un-usable by the plants!)

[Captain Hook]

Conductivity is not GH. I'm not sure why you called that an electronic GH tester.

[shoe]

Cuz the manufacturer says:

American Marine is proud to introduce PINPOINT™ Conductivity Monitor, the only truly accurate and affordable hardness measurement system

But like I said, I ain't a chemist enough to know for sure:)

[cshepard]

Stop this. Go to www.gregwatson.com

Order:

2-4lbs of KNO3
1lb KH2PO4
1 lb CMS+B
2lb GH booster

Baking soda will adjust the KH.

Tell the tank size and whether or not you use CO2 or not.
From there I can tell you a very simple routine that will add precisely what you need for plant growth.

The cost will be less than about anything you can buy that's brand name for one item, let alone all of the items plants need for growth.


THANK YOU TOM, This is exactly what I needed to be told as a beginner to a planted tank! I just want a system to follow and not have to wade thru the vast mire of info myself.

I have a 70g. (actually only holds about 65g) tank and I have a Hagen Co2 kit which I haven't started using yet, and I know would prob. not be sufficient for this tank - but I could add some DIY bottles.

PH - 6.8
KH - 2-3
GH - 5-6
Potted plants in Eco-complete (potted 'cause it's a goldfish tank)

So, if I will order what you suggested (total - $22.86, shipping to Canada - additional $25.05!) can you tell me what my routine should be, please?
And you opinion on whether I should I adjust my KH and use the c02?

[plah831]

Conductivity is not GH. I'm not sure why you called that an electronic GH tester.
:huh: Maybe there's a conductive membrane that reacts to the different ions that form GH (Ca, Mg, CO3, etc.)? Just my guess.

[Captain Hook]

As far as I know carbonates are not included in GH either. KH is made up of CO3.

shoe I see where you get the hardness idea. That's weird that the manufacturer would say that because every definition of conductivity I've read does not mention hardness.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conductivity
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Llambi_Water2.html

[shoe]

My chemistry ignorance shows :(

But I don't follow you... The 2nd link just right into conductivity and hardness and seems to make a direct correlation - will keep reading...

[plah831]

As far as I know carbonates are not included in GH either. KH is made up of CO3.

KH is a component of GH, but maybe my understanding is not correct. But that's why (I think) KH is always < GH, and some hardness tests require you to add drops until the first color change to get degrees KH, then continue adding the drops until the second color change to get degrees GH.

[Captain Hook]

Also worth reading are these article's by Edward at APC. Of special interest to us plant growers are the NPK, GH/Mg/Ca, and KH/PH/CO2 articles.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/science-of-fertilizing/4241-pps-perpetual-preservation-system-new-tables.html

[plantbrain]

THANK YOU TOM, This is exactly what I needed to be told as a beginner to a planted tank! I just want a system to follow and not have to wade thru the vast mire of info myself.

I have a 70g. (actually only holds about 65g) tank and I have a Hagen Co2 kit which I haven't started using yet, and I know would prob. not be sufficient for this tank - but I could add some DIY bottles.

PH - 6.8
KH - 2-3
GH - 5-6
Potted plants in Eco-complete (potted 'cause it's a goldfish tank)

So, if I will order what you suggested (total - $22.86, shipping to Canada - additional $25.05!) can you tell me what my routine should be, please?
And you opinion on whether I should I adjust my KH and use the c02?

You have a massive issue,an Achillies Heel of the worst kind.
DIY CO2 on a tank that's really too large for DIY CO2.

Poor CO2 will wreck havoc on the best light system/nutrient and maintaince routines you can do.

You can stick with non CO2, but with goldfish this is typically difficult due to massive waste they generate and a tenet of non CO2 is no water change, the plants grow at the rate of the waste production of the fish.

If you must do water changes, then Excel or CO2 are the other options.

You need to go look around on web sites etc and understand all you can about CO2 gas systems, :look: they will run about 100-150$ if you poke around and look for deals.

Do that first, then worry about ferts.
Ferts are easy, CO2 is much more of an issue for new and old timers alike and about 95% of the algae issues can be traced to CO2.

If you go CO2 gas tanks:

2x a week:

1/2 teaspoon KNO3
1/8 KH2PO4
Traces: mix 1 liter of water with 2 tablespoons of CMS+B, add 10mls of this 2-3x a week

Add GH booster after water change only, 1 teaspoon or so.

Weekly 50% water change.

That's it, the rest is CO2, CO2 and CO2.


Regards.,
Tom Barr