Very Newbie with pH question

[bbblues]

Hi all. I have just bought my first tank (20 gal) and have been reading everything I can get my hands on to the point where i'm more dizzy than usual. Thanks to this great board and reading Chris Cow's fishless cycling articles, I want to start that today. I decided to test my water before adding the NH3. This water has been in the tank for 3 days and the filter is running. Obviously, no NH3 or NH2, but my pH is 8.6 and KH is 180 with GH of 214.8+. There goes my dream of a school of tetras. Anyway, being a new to all this I don't want to start messing with the water parameters any more than I have to. I read on another thread you could add peat to the filter to try to bring down pH, but I suspect with such a high KH I'd have to add gobs of it. So, my question is (FINALLY :rolleyes: ) what fish do well with such alkaline water, or should I try to lower the pH? Also, what is reverse osmosis?

Sorry for the length (hope you grabbed a snack or something). Thanks!

[ChilDawg]

Holy crap, that's a lot of hardness! I would think fish from the Rift Lakes, such as Tanganyikan shell-dwellers (as not that many of the larger fish from the Rift Lakes would work well in that size tank). Otherwise, rainbowfish would work well. I would recommend convicts, but you would be overrun with them in no time, so that would not be my first choice!

[VoodooChild]

I'd go with Chil's advice and just conform your tank to the fish that like it. Otherwise, R.O. water is Reverse Osmosis water where you take standard tap water, run it through a semi-permeable membrane, sometimes some form of resin (though that's usually D.I. water) and you have very pure water with a near neutral pH and very little to no hardness. Usually you want to mix in some of your tap water, say 50/50 so that you get some mineral content. If you wanted to do that, most major grocery stores sell jugs of the stuff. It's like $10 for a 3 gallon jug but refills are usually around a buck. If you let your tank cycle and then start doing water changes, say 3 50%, you should really lower your pH. 8.6? Ouch, I thought mine was high at 8.2.

[OrionGirl]

First, check the water from your tap, after it has sat in a glass overnight. If the pH is high there (which is possible), then you have the choise of attempting to modify the pH, or of selecting fish that will thrive in your conditions. Using a neutral pH water mixed in with your tap will probably be easiest, though there is a cost (either purchasing the filter, or buying the water. First, though, see what the conditions are at your LFS--if they are similar, then the fish will likely be adapted, and you should be able to have a decent variety of fish.

[bbblues]

Childawg, Voodoochild, and OrionGirl - Thanks for the input and advice. I guess I will try to stay with the fish that will do well in my liquid limestone. I'm just thinking that with the KH so high, even adding filtered water 50-50, the pH would slowly start climbing back up anyway. First I will check with the lfs and see if they condition their water at all. I know they have the same water as I do.

Thanks again! :)

[ChilDawg]

I'm sure that your LFS uses an R/O or D/I filter...most of them in areas with liquid rock do so, especially if they are trying to sell things like cardinal tetras, otos, and the like...so don't be surprised if they inadvertantly tell you that they don't condition their water because it is already pretty pure when it comes out of the "tap"!

[wetmanNY]

I really like ChilDawg's recommendation of Tanganyikan shell-dwellers. The genus is Neolamprologus. Google it for information.

Construction sand and fine gravel. Enough gourmet escargot snailshells to litter the ground. No other kinds of fish. Your own unadulterated limewater.

The fish would come from a specialist on the web. (Armke's?) You won't be ready for the fish til May anyway.

A recipe for complete satisfaction. Skip right over the newbie thing-- Balloon Mollies etc-- and go for it!

[ChilDawg]

I have a few links for you, since I've been looking into the shell-dweller thing for a while:

http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/shellweb/

http://www.cichlidae.com/tanks/t016.html

http://www.aquariacentral.com/articles/shelldwellers.shtml

http://www.nature.com/nsu/000803/000803-1.html
(That one is actually just interesting, but it gives you an idea of the dynamics of social interaction between the shellies.)

http://www.tanganyikan-cichlids.co.uk/Articles.htm
(This is just an all-around good site with regard to Tanganyikan Cichlids...it's worth a read!)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/shelldweller_corner.php
(Again, a site with many good articles within it about your shellies.)

They seem like fun little guys, but I haven't been able to keep them yet...I do have a lot of the relevant lit., so if you need titles of books, let me know and I can be of assistance!

HTH,

Matthew

[bbblues]

Childawg - After reading what you recommended about the shell-dwellers, I did a search on Google and was fascinated and hooked. So much so that my perpetually hungry teenage sons had to actually make their own dinner - poor dears (hah). Thanks so much for all the links you provided - looks like it may be take-out tomorrow night! I have a book that I bought when I decided to go tropical (used to have a coldwater tank, um, about 100 years ago) called The Ultimate Aquarium by Gina Sandford and Mary Bailey which has a pretty extensive section on cichlids, but I do love to read and would appreciate any books you know of more on topic. Thanks again for all your time.

WetmanNY - I love your website! While trying to learn all the chemistry involved in keeping healthy and happy fish, I kept returning to it and have learned so much. Thanks so much for the encouragement with the shell-dwellers.

[ChilDawg]

Barron's Press has books called "Lake Tanganyikan Cichlids" by Mark Phillip Smith and "The Tanganyikan Cichlid Aquarium" by Georg Zurlo.

TFH has one called "Success with Cichlids from Lakes Malawi and Tanganyika" by Sabine Melke.

HTH,

Matthew

[bbblues]

I'm going for it - i've become addicted to the "shellies". Minus is changing out basic stone substrate for sand. Plus is a good friend is a chef and can get the snail shells for a great price. With my water chemistry and size of tank, it's perfect. I can't thank you enough Matthew. :)

[ChilDawg]

You're quite welcome! :D

It would be great, though, if you could post pictures...I can't get any right now, due to living situations, so I'd really like to see someone else's tank of my dreams! :)

[bbblues]

If I ever get done this cycling, I would love to post some pics. Of course, i don't have a digital camera. I've only uploaded via scanner, and that probably would not work. BF is already mystified as to why he came home the other day to find me draining out the tank and diggging out the substrate, only to replace it with sand (more $). He's actually really interested in the shellies as well, but a digital camera could, no would, not be in the picture (yet). Patience is the key word!

joni