Tapwater Ph and KH

[scott]

The Ph of my tapwater is 7.4 but the KH is only1 degree and somedays less. Is there anyway I can raise the KH without affecting the Ph? The only info I could get online said the tapwater is "purchased surface water". I had to order a list of "ingredients" through the mail. It also said my water company had been violated twice for the presence of coliform (TCR). Once in Oct of 2001 and once in sept of 1996. Does anyone know what this is or what affect it might have on fish? Is it a coincidence that it was at the same time of year?

[carpguy]

Try leaving your tapwater stand over night and retest the next day to see if the pH drops.

I use a small bag of crushed coral in my filter to raise the very low KH in my tank. In large enough quantities it can drive your pH up, but its got to take the KH with it. Try checking the Skeptical One's site (www.theskepticalaquarist.com) for details. Be careful though, he's been quite irascible lately ;). In a nutshell, you'll want to get your KH up a little higher (to around at least 3 degrees) in order to stave off pH crashes from bioacidification. At that low level it shouldn't do much to your pH -- the local chemists can offer more informed opinions on this. Stability is the goal. A too low KH can result in instability.

Coliform bacteria aren't real great for us, don't think they do the fish much harm.

The time of the year probably relates to some local agricultural practices/meteorological phenomena. In the dairy country I grew up in in upstate NY many of the farmers spread manure on their newly harvested fields before the winter (around October, fr'instance). The first heavy runoffs after a dry summer, washing wastes into the local watershed? Isn't that hurricane season in the South? Maybe you could check and see if it followed any big storms…

HTH

[scott]

Thanks for the quick reply. Now I can set out some water before I go to bed. ;) I'll post the result tommorrow. Thanks.

I was reading up today on the website and on all of the great info everyone gave canucks on her post last week when she was cycling her tank. I was afraid the coral would raise the ph to high. Well I'll just test the water tommorrow because maybe it will drop. Thanks again!

[carpguy]

When your tapwater is off in the cold at the bottom of your reservoir, or under pressure in your water system, it can hold in saturation gasses that it can't keep in saturation at without the pressure and at normal room temps. Letting it sit overnight will give it a chance to "outgas" and this can have an effect on your pH. Many people report pH dropping the next day by several points.

The WetMan has some verbage on his site about peculiar circumstances where water companies use a noncarbonate buffer (?) to drive up acidic pHs for the sake of their pipes, leaving folks with strange high pH low KH water. Don't really understand it beyond that… he has actual details at his very excellent site (which seems to be down tonight :( ).

The thing with the coral and the KH and the pH is this: if you put a lot in, its going to have a big effect; a little will have a small effect. If you wanted a super alkaline tank you could use it as a substrate. That's not what I want. I have (normal for this fair Berg) very soft and acidic water and I keep fish that like soft and acidic water. My tap is at the bottom of the Low pH test (6) and I have less than 1 dKH (turns at drop 1). 5 tblspns in the filter (after a week or two) got things up to about 3 dKH and pH around 6.8-6.9ish.

And it stays just about there. I don't worry about pH crashes from bioacidification and I'm OK with my meager DIY CO2. The system is stable, which the fish like. When I (eventually) switch to pressurized CO2 it will push the pH down but there will be a buffer to protect the fish. As the water becomes more acidic it will dissolve the coral faster which will increase the KH again until the tank reaches a balance. It may take some fine tuning the amount of coral but somewhat acidic with a margin of safety is a do-able thing (I hope :D ).

HTH

Good luck with it and enjoy your fish…

[thalassic park]

Hi,
Coliforms or faecal coliforms are found in the lower bowel of mammals. Indicates pollution of the water by a dead mammal and/or its excretia.

KH powder can be bought from the supermarket - Rock salt, magnesium sulphate & sodium bicarbonate, can help with maintaining the KH. Saves a lot of money over the years.

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by carpguy
When your tapwater is off in the cold at the bottom of your reservoir, or under pressure in your water system, it can hold in saturation gasses that it can't keep in saturation at without the pressure and at normal room temps. Letting it sit overnight will give it a chance to "outgas" and this can have an effect on your pH. Many people report pH dropping the next day by several points.



Actually, the more common phenomenon is that pH rises after the water sample sits out. This is because the CO2, which is acidic in solution, offgases as the water sits outs. As a result, pH rises.

It's also possible, but seemingly less common, for water to have very high pH (above 8) with almost no KH. This is due, I believe, to a treatment process called the lime soda method. In these cases, it is not uncommon for water to drop some in pH as it is exposed to atmospheric carbon dioxide.

In Scott's case, I agree that an aged sample will provide answers. If the pH/KH relationship holds, a tablespoon or two of crushed coral in a filterbag or nylon stocking placed into your filter will help add KH. You might see a bit of increase in pH, but not much. You probably want to shoot for about 3 degrees KH to provide your water some pH stability.

HTH,
Jim

[carpguy]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Actually, the more common phenomenon is that pH rises after the water sample sits out. This is because the CO2, which is acidic in solution, offgases as the water sits outs. As a result, pH rises.

It's also possible, but seemingly less common, for water to have very high pH (above 8) with almost no KH. This is due, I believe, to a treatment process called the lime soda method. In these cases, it is not uncommon for water to drop some in pH as it is exposed to atmospheric carbon dioxide.


Originally posted by my own foolish self
the local chemists can offer more informed opinions on this…

That seemed wrong even while I was typing it :) :( . Jim is (naturally) correct on that: CO2 outgasses, pH rises, insomniacs make stuff up as they go along :rolleyes:

[RTR]

Clarification: Rock salt and magnesium sulfate will have no effect whatsoever on KH. They will increase TDS, but not the buffering/alkalinity of the water.

Sodium bicarbonate will increase the KH. It is grocery store available as Baking Soda. It is not as stable in use as is aragonite, crushed coral, etc. for me. It is fast acting, but offers no reserve - which is a big part of the value of the aragonite or coral - it dissolves as needed when the quantity is right.

[scott]

Thanks for all of the replies. The first thing I noticed was bubbles on the inside of the glass all around maybe a dozen or two, the escaping gasses I'm assuming. I checked the KH first and it is the same at one, that is the first drop is blue and the second drop turns the water yellow, not the first drop turning it yellow. The Ph however is 7.5. It went up a little. I then checked the tap again and it was 7.0? I don't know what I was looking at last night or thinking or what:mad: I triple checked it. I will do the test again for tommorrow to see.
This makes sense though because when I set up the tank last fall I tested the tap and it was 7.0. (By the way it is 90 gal with S&CA Cichlids). My LFS recommended a PH of 6.5-6.8 for my fish so I have been using strictly RO water and adding elecrolytes in a bottle. In the last couple of weeks of reading I have decided I would like a Ph of around 7.2-7.5 and so I thought I could use a mix of tap and RO, but I need to stabalize the KH so it doesn't crash. So here is what I am thinking (finnaly) and please offer suggestions as to wether you think this will work. 25-50% RO and the balance in tap. I picked up some argonite on the way home from work and I think (based on the info in wetman's site that was pasted from this forum) that I will add 5-6 tablespoons in a bag in one of the media baskets in my fluval. The argonite also claims to have the potassium, magnesium, strontium etc that I have been adding in bottle form so I can do away with that.:) Now that I write this I am thinking I should put it my Penguin as it will be easier to access. Thanks for the replies I know this is kind of rambling.

[wetmanNY]

scott, you've been getting quality advice here...

If your pH-- after the CO2 has equalized with the atmosphere-- is 7.0, that is virtually the same as 6.8. If your LFS has you using reverse osmosis water and purchasing electrolytes from a bottle, that is a ruthless bamboozle. Cut them right out of your routine and find a LFS that has your interests more at heart.

Your water is very soft and manageable, with a little crushed coral aragonite in the filter to stiffen the buffering a bit. Don't overdo it, though. Give it a week to stabilize at the KH you want.

Your water company should have to tell you what source that "purchased surface water" is purchased from! A natural lake. A reservoir. And they should have to tell you what kind of treatment it gets. Check in with your local E.P.A. office and ask about your water utility. That coliform bacteria is related to E. coli, and its presence is a warning sign of runoff contaminated with fecal matter. These little companies are the ones most likely to solve a momentary problem with a blast of unheralded chloramines, wreaking havoc with aquaria.

[scott]

Thanks for the advice wetman I do live in a very rural area with alot of chicken houses and cattle farms this is probably where the run off is from. I plan on going to the actual facility on monday to ask as the only info I could get from online I had to order through the mail, which I did anyway. I already stopped going to that store also their fish selection stank. I was stupid not to ask the people at the new store their opinion, I just kept up with the original routine. Maybe I should ask them what they think to see what they say? :p Thanks for the advice everyone I'll check everyday for a week and trust me you'll hear from me if something is wrong.

I just reread your post wetman and the ph was 7.5 after equalization and 7.0 before. Does this affect anything?