Alkalinity Buffering Issue, cycling phase

[NeonJulie]

I am reposting this in an effort to add more detail to my specific situation... because like another poster, I also seem to have slightly below average Alkalinity Buffering, (if you believe the test strip.) It's telling me it's 80 instead of 120. It recommends using a product to raise this. I know it's best not to fight water conditions, but this low ability to buffer concerns me. I hope to have Neon Tetras, and I know they don't do well with big swings.

I also believe my low factoring kH is causing issues with resulting ammonia in my cycling... In a matter of days I watch the pH drop and drop, and now I also read that a pH of too low can hurt the cycling process by harming the beneficial bacteria. If it were on account of the strips alone, I would be less concerned, but I have noticed these pH swings. Things like changing rocks, or even stirring the rocks, seem to move it a whole point.

The tap water (sitting out overnight) is coming out at around 7.2-7.4, but the tank was at 6.8, then 6.6, then 6.4 and at one point was around 6.0, before I changed out the white rocks for the dark, and stirred the tank up, added 60% new water. Then it soared back up to 7.2 (After settling in last night, it was already down to 7.0 before any ammonia product was added. The existing ammonia had been at .25.) What is causing it to drop?

I read in the cycling issue that baking soda can be used to bring that buffer higher. Is this a viable option? What about in the long term? Will I be fighting a low buffer forever? Should I be concerned to come home from work with dead/sick fish because of an unexpected change?

Thanks for the any answers.

[NeonJulie]

Ok, I figure there's a reason I'm not getting any responses here. So I've done an extensive search for previous posts, and turned up a little bit more information. But not quite enough yet. It seems like a lot of threads die off at the point where I'm getting answers?!

It's pretty clear my KH is low. My pH is acceptable, but since it won't stay put for a day, something needs to happen. From perusing the posts, most of which seem to be directed at SALT water tanks, it appears I have one or two options:

1. Argonite. My product search revealed:
http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444181 0938&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030109&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&bmUID=1163536166240&itemNo=0&Ntt=argonite&In=All&previousText=argonite&N=2

This is again a Salt Water tank product. Do I buy it anyway, spread it in the substrate, or hang it in a mesh bag? And how much? And how long would it take to see results? And would this become a permanent fixture of the tank, or should it be something I expect to do when pre-conditioning water for imminent water changes? /takes a breath


2. Shells/Coral. (Similar to Argonite?)
Similar questions. Isn't this a Salt Water product? How much, from where, how long, and when?

3. Some type of chemical buffering agent? (of which, I only seem to find links to raise the actual pH value, and not the Buffering capacity. But I did see a reference in http://www.csupomona.edu/~jskoga/Aquariums/Ammonia.html Article on Fishless Cycling indicating this product:

"Hopefully, a good buffering product (say, Seachem's Neutral Regulator, which is quite inexpensive)."

I searched and also found posts where some asked about this, but no conclusive responses.

Have I made this question at all easier to answer yet?

[NinjaPirate]

Having never had a problem with PH dropping off that wasn't related to driftwood, I can't really help you. Any advise I'd give would just be what you've already looked up in the forum. All I will say is that crushed coral, while being a product of a saltwater environment, can be used in FW tanks. It's just a source of Calcium Carbonate I believe, which afaik is a buffering agent, and will make your water "harder" (increase alkalinity) which will buffer your ph to a higher value.

[NeonJulie]

Thanks for the response.

I'd forgotten to mention no. 4. the Baking Soda option again, which is touched on but not in a whole lot of confident detail or experience, in the cycling article. Has anyone tried this?

Otherwise, I suppose I could just start flinging stuff in the tank and seeing how it turns out. :P

[Omega]

I'd forgotten to mention no. 4. the Baking Soda option again, which is touched on but not in a whole lot of confident detail or experience, in the cycling article. Has anyone tried this?Baking soda works really well, but use in conjunction with water changes as it can raise your total dissolved solids and sodium levels too high. That's OK though if you're planning on doing a huge water change before adding fish.

The nitrogen cycle also lowers pH so that's to be expected while cycling a tank.

[echoofformless]

As long as your pH is holding steady and is within the acceptable range, I wouldn' even worry about messing around with the water chemistry.

[NeonJulie]

Let's see...

Using Top Fin White Gravel:
11-06: 6.8 (hurray!)
11-08: 6.6 (ok)
11-10: 6.4 (hmm...)
11-11: 6.2
11-12: 6.0 (what the heck.)

11-13: Remove the white rocks, leaving 1/2 c. of them to mix with the new black rocks. 3/4 New water change. (Had to clean up the decaying food from trying to cycle it with flakes. So messy.)

Tested tap water sitting out overnight: 7.4?!

11-14: Tested tank water in the morning: 7.2
11-14: Tested tank water 12 hours later: 7.6. (What?! Maybe stirring the white rocks up?)

11-15: morning, 7.4.
11-15: evening, 7.4. (Ah it stayed the same for 12 hours!)

11-16: morning, 7.6. Again. (And not going in the direction I want it to... I want to be back at 6.8!)


It did occur to me that I have one small piece of driftwood in the tank, and that might have been responsible for lowering, lowering the pH last week. I've never noticed anything coming from it, having bought it from petco, I assumed they already boiled it. But now the pH seems to be all over the place. I'm actually hoping the driftwood pulls down my numbers. But in the meantime, it doesn't look like I have much stabilization.

I told hubby to invent a pH/temperature/testing sensor that will send me an email/text message when it changes, so I can rush home and rescue fish. /cry With my glass box, I may have to.

[NinjaPirate]

I've never noticed anything coming from it, having bought it from petco, I assumed they already boiled it. But now the pH seems to be all over the place. I'm actually hoping the driftwood pulls down my numbers. But in the meantime, it doesn't look like I have much stabilization.


It was almost certainly the driftwood. You have to prep that stuff for weeks sometimes before it stops leeching enough tannins to affect your PH. and if you have a low buffering capacity to begin with, then it'll really drag it down.

[NeonJulie]

Ok well... maybe it finally leeched itself out. It's been submerged (in water/tanks/buckets/tubs - long, horrible story, don't ask *lol*) for a month now. Now I want my lower acidic numbers back. /pout

On the other hand, I've held FOUR good days with only a smaller variance, usually bouncing from 7.3-7.6. It seems to like 7.4. I did a test with some water I've had out for a few nights contemplating a water change (too high ammonia readings for a while, around 6.) And it looks like the water in the bucket was a little lower than from the tap. It looks like the longer it's out of the tap, the lower it gets. (Although not by much, just a few points.) I have the most difficulty reading those blue shades! Maybe it was 7.1-7.2 after it had sat out.

How long can you leave unfiltered/unmoving water out before a water change?

[NinjaPirate]

I leave my pretreated water sitting for two days usually. But I've left it for over a week before.

[NeonJulie]

Well to update, when my pH took a dive on Saturday by half a point, I decided to try the Baking Soda. With 1 tsp, I saw immediate results, from +/- 80 kH to 120. The pH also rose back to 7.4 . I'm not sure if it was coincidental, but the next morning, all traces of my 4-6 ppm Ammonia were gone.

The pH has continued to test a reliable ~7.4. However, the kH seems to drop everyday. In fact, it appears to end up LOWER the day after a Baking Soda treatment. Is this possible? Last night when it dropped again to ~80, I added a 1/2 tsp again. It went back up to ~120. In the morning, the pH was still 7.4, but the kH then tested at 40! Is it normal to have to treat with Baking Soda everyday?!

Coincidentally again, this morning I woke up and all traces of yesterday's Ammonia treatment were again non-existant. The NitrItes are still high though. (Probably to be expected at this point in the cycle.)

So am I supposed to have to consistently add Baking Soda, where is it going, and could it have had any affect on why the ammonia is now disappearing, or is that likely a result of where I am in the cycle?

(Thankfully, it's not very hard to add Baking Soda. :D)

[johnlarson66]

I have read that test strips are not as accurate as the test tubes. I am not sure if this applies to pH or not.

Maybe try to a different testing method.

[NeonJulie]

I do have the API Liquid tests for pH. Unless you meant KH...