The Aquarium Cleaning Machine

[Star_Rider]

Hype or real??

"This incredible machine agitates the gravel within a tube, filters out the waste material and returns clean, detoxified water to your aquarium." from advertisement

anybody have experience with this machine?? :shark:

[BloodThirsty28]

link?

[Star_Rider]

http://www.fishsupply.com/sapgv-100.html

here's one link

[echoofformless]

Looks like a simple waste of money to me.

[Star_Rider]

http://www.ancientmarinerinc.com

and another

[Star_Rider]

Looks like a simple waste of money to me.

Ya think??? :Angel:

[echoofformless]

Yeah I'm not impressed. Sure it beats out a normal gravel vac...but the price is pretty high and I question how much it will cost for filter replacements.

[Star_Rider]

Yeah I'm not impressed. Sure it beats out a normal gravel vac...but the price is pretty high and I question how much it will cost for filter replacements.


NOW AVAILABLE: Replacement Mircon cartdriges (twin pack-2) -$19.99




for the micron catridges..I wondewr how long they last(micron) sounds like they fill up pretty fast.

I'm curious how it 'detoxifies' the water??

[CaitxSith]

maybe it's similar to the bio-wheel, which it also states (i think) it detoxifies...

[TKOS]

Spend the money on a decent python. Large water changes will also detoxify the tank water.

[DaisyTattoo]

I hope people don't get the wrong idea and stop using decholorinator(sp).

[kcooley]

it is a really expensive python. with a prefilter. i dont see much else

[jm1212]

why filter the crud out of the old water you are just going to put down the drain?

[jeffs99dime]

not neccessary 1. for that price it better check my water parameters too. oh yeah, and feed my fish while i'm away. lol :rolleyes:

[echoofformless]

maybe it's similar to the bio-wheel, which it also states (i think) it detoxifies...

Not the same thing at all. A biowheel is a type of wet/dry biological filter.

This product is a mechanical filter.

[kcooley]

this product uses a siphon to get the gravel clean like a python it puts the water down the drain. using an input it detoxifies and prefilters all water before it replaces it.

it is a combination between the python and one of the tap water prefilters they sell at petco

[Star_Rider]

I beleive the product uses micron filters which probably would reduce the TDS ,..it also utilizes a diatom type system..polishing the water.probably good to use in between water changes in a heavily stocked tank.
apparently there are professional systems similar..but would ya believe it if I told ya most professional tank maint includes a water change regime... :Angel:

part of it is hype..i'd be curious to see how it rates amongst the professional tank keepers with large tank..I read someone is actually using a refugium type system that for thier 1000 gallon tanks(the refugium is nearly as large and utilizes deep sandbeds and live plants.) I'm waiting to see how that turns out.

[cstrohmeyer]

I just recently joined this forum after reading this thread while surfing the internet for "aquarium cleaning".

I was rather taken aback by the answers to this question as it is obvious that knowone really has used this machine nor bothered to research what some aquarium professionals think of it either (sorry to sound insulting, however I am really bugged by anecdotal information).
This machine is popular with aquarium service professionals (which is how I found out about it) where products that do not work are quickly discarded.
With this machine you can change out only 25% of the water (so a to not cause osmotic shock due to large water changes) and the CONTINUE to vacuum the tanks removing as much organic mulm form the tank as possible that otherwise lead to high DOC and poor Redox. This mulm is removed simply by cleaning the micron filter when finished (unlike a standard filter that is run continuously).
Also, as to the micron cartridge, I have rinsed these over 25 times in a bleach/water solution and then reused the cartridges (which keeps this end of the operation relatively inexpensive.
Considering I have built my own Python style gravel vacuums for my aquarium maintenance business long before these overpriced Pythons became popular, I can state emphatically that these Cleaning Machine go well beyond the Pythons in what they can do (realistically comparing the tow is like apples to oranges)

For a small FW aquarium I would say save your money, however for a tank over 60 gallons or for multiple aquariums or especially for marine aquariums these machines really pay for themselves.

[Sploke]

I'm not sure I get it...looks like a gravel vac attached to a canister filter, so instead of draining the water it gets pumped back into the tank? so you still have to do water changes separately?

[southpaw]

I dont see anything it does that a Python wont do.....other than eat your wallet up buying new filters everytime you use it

[Star_Rider]

I just recently joined this forum after reading this thread while surfing the internet for "aquarium cleaning".

I was rather taken aback by the answers to this question as it is obvious that knowone really has used this machine nor bothered to research what some aquarium professionals think of it either (sorry to sound insulting, however I am really bugged by anecdotal information).
This machine is popular with aquarium service professionals (which is how I found out about it) where products that do not work are quickly discarded.
With this machine you can change out only 25% of the water (so a to not cause osmotic shock due to large water changes) and the CONTINUE to vacuum the tanks removing as much organic mulm form the tank as possible that otherwise lead to high DOC and poor Redox. This mulm is removed simply by cleaning the micron filter when finished (unlike a standard filter that is run continuously).
Also, as to the micron cartridge, I have rinsed these over 25 times in a bleach/water solution and then reused the cartridges (which keeps this end of the operation relatively inexpensive.
Considering I have built my own Python style gravel vacuums for my aquarium maintenance business long before these overpriced Pythons became popular, I can state emphatically that these Cleaning Machine go well beyond the Pythons in what they can do (realistically comparing the tow is like apples to oranges)

For a small FW aquarium I would say save your money, however for a tank over 60 gallons or for multiple aquariums or especially for marine aquariums these machines really pay for themselves.


have you used it?

I am curious as to how well it works.

[Plecosterone]

I dont see anything it does that a Python wont do.....other than eat your wallet up buying new filters everytime you use it
It "MAY" work better than a python, but as stated at a much heavier cost. Cleaning a tank is part of owning one. If all I did was look at my tanks I would get bored real fast. It is also another reason I use sand. I don't have to get into it like gravel.

[cstrohmeyer]

Yes I have used one (I currently own one) and even though I have recently sold my aquarium maintenance business, many of my colleagues use machines and really like them.

Once you get used to it is great.
I (and others) have also used it to "reverse pump" water from "mineralized" RO tanks for discus and saltwater mixing containers.

What is nice about this is that I can continue to vacuum after the desired water amount is removed (I attach a garden hose and exhaust the waste to a toilet or out the door); this is done with the polishing micron filter.

As to comparisons to the Python, the average Python set costs about $60 (although as I stated earlier I made my own using Lees Gravel Vacs and sink pumps and adapters for under $25), I think for the extra $100 this is worth it as this cleaning device does not waste all the water a Python or similar does plus it simply does a better job. However I guess it all comes down to what is more important to ones budget and aquarium accessories within ones means, but since I have maintained fish worth nearly as much as this machine (some Discus, Marine Angels, etc.) it is worth the investment to me to keep a healthier tank (lower DOC, improved Redox, etc.)

[IceH2O]

I think what he is trying to say is that its just like the python except when you remove the amount of water you want for a water change you then can flip a switch that lets you then continue to clean the gravel without losing anymore water.

The water that would come out of the tank while cleaning the rest of the gravel would instead be recycled and cleaned and put back into the tank. Its just a way to clean all your gravel without dumping all your old water and replacing it with new water.

In other words if you change out 50% of your water during changes and it took 75% of your tank water to be removed in the time it took to clean all your gravel you could now do it and only remove 50% of the water and the other 25% would be the original water just cleaned and polished. Then you'd just add back the 50% you would normally change.

[mozart]

I see now. I glanced at the slideshow and the ad earlier and that wasn't very clear. Welcome to AC cstrohmeyer, and thank you fo the insight. Many will appreciate your experience!

[chilligirl]

My lfs uses one of these, and it works like a hot ****. They still do water changes weekly on the tank, but, with their tanks stocked as heavily as they are, this really helps keep them clean in between changes. I've watched them use it. They wheel it out, stick the two ends in, stir the heck out of the gravel, and walk away. Come back a few minutes later, and move it over to the next tank.

I don't think it would be worthwhile unless you had a very large heavily stocked tank, or multiple tanks (like 10 or more).

[Sploke]

So when I set up my drip system, I don't have to worry about water changes...and I would basically get the same result from attaching a gravel vac onto a canister filter like an XP2 stuffed with filter floss?

[The Zigman]

I think the idea here is that you can vacuum your substrate without losing 75% of your water. I have lost more than half of the water from my tiny little 10 gal just by vacumming the gravel. The idea is you could vac till you are satisfied with the results, and not have to change more water than you want to. I thought about doing this by plumbing a valve and hose barb into my FX5 that I could connect a gravel vac to. then do water changes as a seperate task altogether. Sounds like a good idea to me, but I think I could build one with a pump, and a sediment Omni filter from Menards or Home Depot, and save a buncha cash..

[cstrohmeyer]

I see now. I glanced at the slideshow and the ad earlier and that wasn't very clear. Welcome to AC cstrohmeyer, and thank you fo the insight. Many will appreciate your experience!


Thank you for your nice welcome!:)


So when I set up my drip system, I don't have to worry about water changes...and I would basically get the same result from attaching a gravel vac onto a canister filter like an XP2 stuffed with filter floss?

I have tried similar applications, however these filters have more "flow by" and floss does not have the same polishing effect as filter floss.
You would acheive more similar results with something like a Lifeguard Micron system or Ocean Clear Micron filter conected to a gravel vacuum.

This device still does not replace the need for a water change, it just makes it much more efficient, especially for larger, multiple, or high bio load tanks.
For a single 20 gallon tank with a few fish it would take more time just to set it up, but when when larger tanks or high bio load tanks are involved this saves time as well.

[Star_Rider]

I actually think it may be a good idea.

I wish I could see on in action.

I gather that it treats tap water prior to adding into the tank? eliminating the need for prime(or other conditioner) ?


I like many here have several tanks my smallest is 29 largest is 110 marine/reef.

[Sploke]

Luckily I use well water so pretreatment is not necessary, I am able to add it directly to the tank. The drip system/auto change will take care of water changes, and I was planning on using a canister with sponges and floss for vacuuming, and maybe a micron filter bag over the return for a final polish. The concept is nice but I still think its overpriced. Likewise, usually have 10+ tanks running varying from 10gal QT tanks up to 200gal so any timesaver is great, I just tend to look at existing designs and build my own stuff for less $$.

[Star_Rider]

Luckily I use well water so pretreatment is not necessary, I am able to add it directly to the tank. The drip system/auto change will take care of water changes, and I was planning on using a canister with sponges and floss for vacuuming, and maybe a micron filter bag over the return for a final polish. The concept is nice but I still think its overpriced. Likewise, usually have 10+ tanks running varying from 10gal QT tanks up to 200gal so any timesaver is great, I just tend to look at existing designs and build my own stuff for less $$.

My fav discus breeder uses an drip type system..it is great.
sounds like an interesting system you designed.

where's the pictures ;)

[Sploke]

Its not installed yet :) Its for the fishwall I'm building (see the link in my sig). The plumbing is going to be the last step, running a new water line over behind the wall and setting up the auto-topoff. There will be lots of pictures when it's completed.

[KRUNNCH540]

I am still curious about one thing though. I have some Eheim 2217s lying around. What prevents me from stuffing filter floss, blue bonded filter and some micron pads...then sucking the crap out of my gravel? Would that not be the same thing? Surely if I stuff enough filtration into my Eheim, I can nearly replicate the filter capabilities. Then separately I can do a water change with a hose and leave it gravity fed while I am sucking the living day lights out of the gravel. I mean normally, I only use my Python to get a siphon started. I just turn it off at that point and let gravity slowly drain my tank...saves water.

[cstrohmeyer]

I actually think it may be a good idea.

I wish I could see on in action.

I gather that it treats tap water prior to adding into the tank? eliminating the need for prime(or other conditioner) ?


I like many here have several tanks my smallest is 29 largest is 110 marine/reef.


There is a carbon insert in this unit, however I do not always use this, especially in my clients planted aquariums.
I generally do not fill via this machine anyway except for RO (with added minerals) containers or saltwater mixing containers (I place the vacuum end into the container and the exhaust into the tank), generally I use a line from the faucet or outdoor connect (if warm enough). So the way I personally use this machine, the carbon insert is not really as important since the RO or SW containers are already chlorine free.

This URL has a link to a video (Windows Media Player required) just under the slide show: http://americanaquariumproducts.com/CleaningMachine.html

[cstrohmeyer]

I am still curious about one thing though. I have some Eheim 2217s lying around. What prevents me from stuffing filter floss, blue bonded filter and some micron pads...then sucking the h*ll out of my gravel? Would that not be the same thing? Surely if I stuff enough filtration into my Eheim, I can nearly replicate the filter capabilities. Then separately I can do a water change with a hose and leave it gravity fed while I am sucking the living day lights out of the gravel. I mean normally, I only use my Python to get a siphon started. I just turn it off at that point and let gravity slowly drain my tank...saves water.

I have tried many similar hook ups myself long before this machine became available, however the design of the Eheim, Fluval or Via Aqua canister filters (the tree I have used the most) simply allows a lot of flow by in comparison to this machines design. Also a micron filter polishes much better than floss, however if you try jamming poly filter pads this may work with some more efficiency.

Where I have achieved more similar results is with filters that have the same style o cartridge arrangement and use a micron filter such as the LifeGuard, the Magnums (although generally too weak) and the Ocean Clear.
I rigged up a vacuum to an Ocean Clear (which have strong motors) many years back and achieved pretty good results.

Here is a URL with an Ocean Clear picture:
http://www.aquarium-supply.biz/Ocean_Clear_Model_317_Canister_Filter_p/roc80317.htm (http://www.aquarium-supply.biz/Ocean_Clear_Model_317_Canister_Filter_p/roc80317.htm)

[Star_Rider]

good information

thank you and welcome aboard

[KRUNNCH540]

I second that.

[gagaliya]

what kind of idiot would pay 180 bucks for this, must be a joke. Just get a python for 30 bucks, vac while doing water change, same thing. And when you are adding water back, pour in the prime to dechlorinate.

If you are really obsessed about keeping the gravel clean, get an eheim sludge extractor for 50 bucks and you can gravel vac all day long.

If you dont want to gravel vac at all, setup a saltwater tank or a planted freshwater tank. I havent vacced for over 2 years now.

I thought it was some type of automated water change / gravel cleaning system, but it's just a fancy python that cost 180 bucks :wall:

[cstrohmeyer]

I second that.

THANKS!

As to the point about the cleaning machine being a fancy python for $180. I am sorry but this is apples to oranges, a better comparison is to a Vortex Diatom Filter with an attached vacuum as this is both a water changer AND a polishing filter.
Obviously this is definitely not for everyone (in fact this is most like NOT for the average aquarist with 20 gallon tank on their dresser), however if one is having problems with high DOC or poor Redox this machine is very helpful so as to NOT change too much water at a time (causing osmotic stress in fish).
It really comes down an aquarists personal needs and value they may place on their fish (assuming water quality has been an issue, again DOC and Redox in particular).
To me the bottom line is why would aquarium professionals waste their money on something that doe not work?

[cstrohmeyer]

I have been busy at a few other forums (EA and YA) and never checked this thread in a while, sorry.

Here is s link to a couple of videos with the machine in action that MAY help one decide whether or not it is worth while:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/CleanMachinevideo.html

Carl

[gabrie30]

What is the EA and YA forums?

[Coler]

that looks like a very clever device - the only thing I'd say is that I frequently do a 50% change with no (perceived anyway) ill effects (malawis).

now if it would lift out the rockwork and put it back in again I'm sold !

[platytetrafan]

Think I would rather gravel vac myself atleast I know I do a good job.:grinno:

[catfish69hunter]

Spend the money on a decent python. Large water changes will also detoxify the tank water.
HEARD OF THE PYTHON BEFORE BUT NEVER SEEN ONE ANY ONE GOT A LINK??

[Gangstafish]

I will put my Diatom XL against the MACHINE. I will win. I won't lose any water,and it filters out to one micron. One micron= ich.

[Mgamer20o0]

http://akamai.edeal.com/images/catalog3684/folder24579/img3038676.jpg

[WinnipegDragon]

The product doesn't seem to do anything really special. A python and a micron/canister filter would do the same things, and actually be a bit more versatile overall.

Carl, it looks like you are the owner of that site you linked to. Have you sold many of them?

[Cory Keeper]

Here is what you do to build the same thing for under $60 and as a filter for any other tanks you may want

What you need
canister ($5-10 depending on what you get)
Pump ($25 for a QuietOne)
Grommets x2($4)
Plumbing ($10)
Filter floss ($3.50 for a bag)
Filter Foam ($6 for a three pack of foam for the AquaClear filters)
Some 50 Micron filter media ($6)

Assemble, total cost $59.50, a total savings of $120, spend that on a new tank. Depending on the amount of dirt sucked up, and the number of tanks serviced, you could still use it for filtering your tanks without having to clean the filter again. Whats more you don't have to spend $20 per filter cartdridge.

[Que]

I don't need such a machine.

I have trouble taking someone wearing a leather doo-rag seriously.

Q

[dixienut]

http://akamai.edeal.com/images/catalog3684/folder24579/img3038676.jpg

thats what i used, i have and extra and it does the same thing, back when i didn't have so many plantsnow i don't vac as much,

[mooch4056]

Spend the money on a decent python. Large water changes will also detoxify the tank water.

:iagree:

Amen brother!

[banditbasser]

Hey first post here, gonna check the forums out more now.

Sorry to pull up an old post but I started in this thread because I have this machine and it seems like a serious unit but it is definitely overkill for my 20 gallon tank with 2 goldfish!

I hooked it up once and realized I was in way over my head. It is virtually brand new.

I see there are some mixed reviews here but I am moving and could use the money. Would anyone want to try this for $100? Or make an offer. If you are in North Carolina I could possibly meet you.

Email me if you are interested, I could get pics. Thanks.

[Coler]

Welcome to AC :)

I'd take it from you but I live in Ireland...what would p&p be :D

[banditbasser]

I am assuming it would be pretty darn expensive. But if you decide it would be worth it I will look into it for you.

[cstrohmeyer]

The product doesn't seem to do anything really special. A python and a micron/canister filter would do the same things, and actually be a bit more versatile overall.

Carl, it looks like you are the owner of that site you linked to. Have you sold many of them?


First, yes I am.
I started this site a few years back after needing to move for family reasons, which meant selling my large Aquarium maintenance and desgn business of almost 30 years.
I started this business and my large aquarium information article sites at the suggestion of many who really liked our honest service and unique information that was not based on common anecdotal knowledge (see these sites: http://americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Information.html (http://americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Information.html)
http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/ (http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/) )

Most everything I decided to sell was and is based on my use and continueing relationship with several large aquarium maintenance companies in LA CA.
This includes the Aquarium Maintenance Machine, which I only tried after a few maintenance colleagues recommended I try it (I was not impressed on first glance myself)

And in answer to your first point, I too have used pythons, Vortex Diatoms in the literal 1000s of aquariums I have maintained and while I will not know these devices, I will state that this machine DOES out perform these other methods for efficiency, DOC control, nitrate control and more. The only negative, is I think they are a waste of money for aquariums much under 60 gallons unless you have multiples.
As to sales, I have sold about 250 to date with only one return (maybe more)

I would also state again that I pride myself on ONLY selling products after I or my maintenance colleagues have used them for a while. Based on this, I have rejected many products that sounded good but were junk and did not sound good, but were (such as this Cleaning Machine; http://americanaquariumproducts.com/CleaningMachine.html (http://americanaquariumproducts.com/CleaningMachine.html) )

Quite bluntly I only have posted on this thread (I did not start it) to respond to some statements that were not accurate.
I get rather frustrated by the amount of misinformation that gets passed around the internets as to the aquarium hobby, whether about this subject or more serious subjects such as chemistry, lighting, UV Sterilization, Redox Potential, mineralization (such as Calcium) and many other subjects of which I have spent 1000s of hours in research (mostly outside the anecdotal aquarium industry/hobby) and hands on practical experience and experiments.

Carl

[Coler]

I am assuming it would be pretty darn expensive. But if you decide it would be worth it I will look into it for you.

Sorry I didn't mean to lose track of this thread. I'm quite curious as to how much it would be - if you check it out feel free to pm me with a total figure :)

[johnwhitlow]

I'll buy your aquarium cleaning machine. I can be reached at 9196277772