Loaches and ICH..what medication?

[azadehm1]

I'm at a loss...I've read everything I could on Ich but here I am 3 weeks later and the loaches(clown and yo-yo) are still battling it. My question now is what medication should I be using since waht I've used is obviously not doing the job.

Since I have loaches I've been applying 50% of the recommended amount (is this the problem).
In the beginning I used malachite green and formaline (Ich away) for a week.
then I used victoria green, acriflavine ( jungle tabs )for two weeks.
I just bought copper safe which is copper sulfate and I'm going to try that. Currently the temperature is at 85 to promote shortened life cycles of the tomites. I'm doing 50% water changes before and cleaning the substrate, a real pain since they are in a 75 gallon.

So my question is what have you used with scaleless fish that has worked (brand or active ingredient)? also what about doing a "bath" in which i double the product and then do a large water change right after an hour?

[boofish2]

This may sound like a silly question but are you sure it's in fact ich? I say this because a lot of bottom dwellers are suseptable to columinaris which sometimes can have similar psychical looking traits to ich. I've had this problem with corys I've had in the past. Anyway, what's worked for me besides pristine water conditions of course was coppersafe but I probably wouldn't do a "bath" just because it is pretty strong stuff and like you said, scaleless fish are sensitive. It can damage any plants you may have and if you have any inverts you must remove them for the duration of the treatment. Also, make sure you continually test your water because too much Coppersafe can damage/kill your bio-filter. I hope this is helpful, good luck :)

[Barbie]

I rarely use anything but salt and water changes and heat to cure ich on Clown loaches. The meds stress them out, which perpetuate the ich's ability to reattach to them. If you keep doing daily 30% water changes with careful gravel vac'ing, leave the heat at 86, and add a teaspoon of salt per gallon every day for three days (yes, readd the whole dose, even though you only take out 1/3 with the water change), the fish will start to look much better within 4 or 5 days. It's even a much cheaper alternative ;).

Barbie

[wataugachicken]

Ich Treatment and Info (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88601&highlight=ich+article)


The common recommended dose for treating ich is 2 tsp per gallon of water. It’s not recommended to put the salt right in the tank. You should mix it in with water so that it dissolves and then add the salt water into the tank. I recommend that you add about a quarter of the salt mix every few hours so that you don’t shock your fish as badly. You only do this once not everyday like with other ich medications. Salt does not evaporate or dilute over time in the water. The ich will probably look like it is getting worse for the first few days while you’re waiting for the salt to have its effect on in. If the ich does not look like its getting better after 5 days you will want to increase the dose by another 1 tsp per gallon. If you are keeping tropical fish I would recommend slowly turning the heat up to 86 degrees to help quicken the life cycle of the cyst which will not be affected by the salt. If you are keeping goldfish or other cool water species I would go to 74-76 degrees. Some people will tell you that 80 is ok for cool water but this really brings them undo stress. 74-76 will speed up the cycle of the organism enough that it should be killed off out in a week’s time. Remember heat is not necessary to kill ich the salt or medication will do it on there own but increasing the temperature will quicken the life cycle of the ich organism. If you keep any invertebrates or very fragile species you may want to consult an expert of the species to make sure that salt will not harm them. I would wait about seven days before doing another water change so that the salt has time to wipe out the life cycle of the organism. When you are done treating for ich I wouldn’t worry about doing a massive water change just your normal maintenance and the salt will be diluted out over time.

[is300zx]

I've used Rid Ich + and its safe for scaleless fish even at full dosage. Just follow the direction on the bottle. Lately, I been using heat, salt, and no meds which has worked well for me. I've set the temps as high as 90F since most strains of ich dies at temps 86F and up.

[H3D]

You should not use salt to treat loaches. I have used Copper Safe with great results.

[is300zx]

You should not use salt to treat loaches. I have used Copper Safe with great results.

Why not?

[azadehm1]

Thanks for everyones replys. In response:
"This may sound like a silly question but are you sure it's in fact ich? I say this because a lot of bottom dwellers are suseptable to columinaris which sometimes can have similar psychical looking traits to ich."
I'm positive it's Ich mostly because a bacteria like columaris will show growth around the edges of the lesion rather than disappearing and reappearing spots like ich (although the spots may appear to grow but this is mostly as the adult grows and then falls off).

As to not using salt with clown loaches...I've also heard that it's a bad idea. Although I can't remember where I've read that.
My plan is to use the copper safe and increase the temperature to 90. Clown loaches do not mind the heat at all. **please keep in mind this is not true for many other types of loaches.
I wish myself good luck. :)

[azadehm1]

One more question do you think I should use full strength or reduce the amount of Coppersafe? There is no mention on the insert for using with scaleless fish. Also, after the ich is gone should I dose antibacterials or fungicides prophylactically? Have your loaches readily developed secondary infections after Ich?

[H3D]

Why not?It is not good for the loaches.

http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2599

[is300zx]

A member of loaches online also said this about the salt on that same article

6. While I respect your position on Salt, please note that it is not at all clear that Salt is always a worse poison than other ich meds. It seems that formalyn is actually more dangerous for at least hillstreams, while Malachite Green+Salt combination drugs (Nox, Ich Guard) are safe.

This comes from another article on ich http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

Can my fish handle salt? I wrote this article with African rift lake cichlids in mind, and I have successfully exposed my Malawi haps and clown loaches to a salt treatment without any problems. But these fish are accustomed to fairly hard water with a high pH. It is my understanding that species preferring soft water will not tolerate salt as well. If you keep soft water fish, please do your homework before proceeding with salt.

[Barbie]

I raise extremely softwater fish, including blackwater ancistrus and many other sensitive species. I've used the treatment I recommended on clown loaches numerous times with no detrimental effects, as well as other less common species. Salt is a highly debated method of treatment, but also very effective when done correctly! Coppersafe can permanently affect the nervous system and I do not recommend using it in any form on fish unless it absolutely can not be avoided. Salt is going to be MUCH easier on them in the long run.

Barbie

[nursie]

I too have successfully treatd loaches with salt for ich with no adverse reactions. Using other medications is riskier.

[azadehm1]

"Coppersafe can permanently affect the nervous system and I do not recommend using it in any form on fish unless it absolutely can not be avoided. Salt is going to be MUCH easier on them in the long run."

I just wanted to post that previous to my treatment my loaches were eating constantly and being generally active. 15 minutes after my addition of the coppersafe my upside down catfish was dead. I panicked at that point and immediately changed 30% of the water to get some of the coppersafe out. A few hours later two clown loaches have died and the large one is most likely not going to make it. I changed another 25% this morning just to get out even more. Ironically all three of the yo-yo loaches are doing great.
On the loaches online site it also has several comments on the effective usage of coppersafe, so I trusted that. Unfortunently...I am positive that the medication in this situation not the Ich killed nearly all of my clown loaches.
I think temperature and salt are most likely better choices, unfortunently maybe I should have waited for more people to post before giving the meds.

[nhatduongchi]

I read this thread yesterday (I have the same situation as yours; apply 50% of malachite green and formaline for almost a week) then I decide to use heat + salt approach. Today after change 25% water I add salt (1 teaspoon / gal) and will do the same as Barbie stated above for the next three days to see what happen.

[H3D]

I just wanted to post that previous to my treatment my loaches were eating constantly and being generally active. 15 minutes after my addition of the coppersafe my upside down catfish was dead. I panicked at that point and immediately changed 30% of the water to get some of the coppersafe out. A few hours later two clown loaches have died and the large one is most likely not going to make it. I changed another 25% this morning just to get out even more. Ironically all three of the yo-yo loaches are doing great.
On the loaches online site it also has several comments on the effective usage of coppersafe, so I trusted that. Unfortunently...I am positive that the medication in this situation not the Ich killed nearly all of my clown loaches.
I think temperature and salt are most likely better choices, unfortunently maybe I should have waited for more people to post before giving the meds.I am very sorry for your loss. :sad: I have used CopperSafe many times and it has never failed me. Just out of curiosity did you use 50% the normal dose? How long did you wait between using the previous medication and dosing the CopperSafe?