View Full Version : Not sure if this is Ich
BioFilter
12-04-2006, 11:20 AM
I am not sure about this, but my bottom feeders seem to be irritated by something and flash into the sand. None of the tetra's or the top dwelling fish exhibit this behavior. It is as if they get sand in their gills (or something) and try to get it out. Only the clown loaches, cory's, and dojo's do this. There is no sign of ich anywhere but there has to be something bothering them. Has anyone ran into this kind of situation before with their bottom dwellers?
PS
Water parameters are normal, 0 ammo, 0 nitrites, water changes weekly.
What kind of sand are you using? How long has this tank been established? What are your nitrate levels? Added anything to the tank recently?
BioFilter
12-04-2006, 11:40 AM
The tank has been established for over 5 months, going on 6. The sand is plain/regular sand from a landscaper store and was cleaned very well before being added to the tank. The nitrates are low, a little over 5. Nothing added to the tank recently, except plants.
How long have your fish been flashing? Did you quarantine or sanitize the plants before adding them?
BioFilter
12-04-2006, 2:50 PM
I noticed the dojo's started about a month and a half ago. Then the clowns started soon after, and now the cory's joined in. The last plant was added 2 weeks ago and the other plants have been in there for months. I added a few snails for the loaches a while back (cant remember exactly when). When it first started I examined all the fish very closely and there are no signs of ich at all. I check them daily and do not see any. I am trying to think of anything else that may assist, and no, I never quarantined plants or sanitized them.
It could be that the addition of the plants exposed them to something. However without a visual cue this can be hard to diagnose. On the other hand if none of the top dwellers are sick it might be the sand. While many think sand is the best for bottom dwellers...I do not. It is very possible for the sand to get in their gills when they are eating and cause irritation. This is a tough call you will have to make.
fish_freak
12-04-2006, 3:59 PM
Scaleless fish are the most suseptabel to ich and may not even show the white spot's untill it is to late. It's hard to say what exactly it is but I would guess it would be some sort of external parasite. Here is an article on ich that my help answer some of your questions.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88601
BioFilter
12-04-2006, 4:03 PM
Just a thought, but has salt ever been known to settle in substrate? I am wondering if salt is added to a tank from time to time, if any of it might collect in sand and not be removed with water changes.
Why would you add salt to that tank? And it would be dissolved before adding, anyway, wouldn't it? If it's plain old NaCl, it would not precipitate, either.
I noticed that nearly all fish I get from the fish stores that I go to have internal and external parasites. Now, everything I buy goes into the quarantine tank and gets prophylacticaly treated for parasites, whether I see any or not. And, as fish_freak already said, you probably won't see ich in scaleless fish until it is too late. I can tell this from my own experience.
I disagree in my experiences clown loaches are one of the fastest fish to show ich. I'm not saying that the fish do not have a parasite. However with loaches it can be just as risky to medicate as it can to wait and see. Just out of curiousity at what temperature are you keeping clowns and dojos together?
jm1212
12-04-2006, 6:42 PM
IME the scaless fish show signs the fastest because they are easier targets for the parasites than the fish with scales or that have the plates
Cory Lover
12-04-2006, 6:45 PM
Hi,
About once a week I see one of my Cories flash. But I've only have seen them do that at feeding time and I think that they get all those bits of shrimp pellets in their gills and just feel a little itchy :) .
Cory Lover
Hi,
About once a week I see one of my Cories flash. But I've only have seen them do that at feeding time and I think that they get all those bits of shrimp pellets in their gills and just feel a little itchy :) .
Cory Lover
Just out of curiosity do you have sand as the substrate in your aquarium? Like I mentioned earlier IMO it is very easy for the sand to get sucked in while eating and irritate the gills of the fish.
I disagree in my experiences clown loaches are one of the fastest fish to show ich.
May well be, I had cories. They just swelled and burst within a few hours. Then the other fish showed ich. But this doesn't fit the description of the current problem, anyway.
Cory Lover
12-04-2006, 10:22 PM
Just out of curiosity do you have sand as the substrate in your aquarium? Like I mentioned earlier IMO it is very easy for the sand to get sucked in while eating and irritate the gills of the fish.
Hi,
I just have gravel now. In the future I'm thinking of making a sand pit for my Cories.
Also, I agree that Clowns get ick really easily.
Cory Lover
Shagmaster
12-05-2006, 12:10 AM
Have the same problem in my 50 gal. No sand. Q) Would high ph have anything to do with the symptoms, (Flashing)? Tank has been established about 8 months now.
BioFilter
12-05-2006, 5:03 AM
I read fish_freaks article, but I am puzzled because I am sure the clowns would show visible signs of ich by this time, or at least one fish in the tank would have some visual clue. From what I have read, dojo's are ok as long as the temp does not get above 76, so I try to keep the temp at 74 so all the fish are comfortable, but I am looking into another tank for the dojo's which will be un-heated.
The water is basically steady parameter wise, ph, nitrates, etc. It is always the same. I asked about salt settling in the sand because I have tried smaller doses in the past to relieve gill irritation, but water changes since that time should have removed it. Plus I am trying to find reasons for this behavior.
The common thread I see is that only the bottom dwellers exhibit this, and they happen to be scaleless. And I also see that a couple others noticed this problem too. I have thought about a mild dose of medication to see if it would solve this, but I am very hesitant about it. The fact that it is the bottom feeders led me to believe that it is the sand irritating the gills and the flashing is an effort to remove it. I have to keep all options open in case it is parasitic. And I would hate to have to replace the sand, this would be a major undertaking.
BioFilter
12-05-2006, 4:06 PM
I guess the best course of action will be to assume the 'sand in the gills' theory and accept this as a fact of the tank. Since I cannot see any signs of parasitic infection, I do not want to use medication, heat, or salt. All the fish look healthy and well fed with good color and activity. Best to leave things as they are for now.
Thanks for the input!
I read fish_freaks article, but I am puzzled because I am sure the clowns would show visible signs of ich by this time, or at least one fish in the tank would have some visual clue. From what I have read, dojo's are ok as long as the temp does not get above 76, so I try to keep the temp at 74 so all the fish are comfortable, but I am looking into another tank for the dojo's which will be un-heated. Wait a minute you have temp at 74 degrees? This is way too cold for clown loaches. Clown loaches cannot live at that temperature they need it to be around 80 degrees. This could also cause slow growth in parasites. It could be ich and it just has not reach the visible stage in its life cycle yet.
BioFilter
12-05-2006, 5:17 PM
Then I am getting conflicting information. According to www.loaches.com,
Clown Loaches
Distribution: Sumatra and Borneo
Length: Up to 12in (30cm)
Diet: Worms, crustaceans, plant matter,and dried food
Water temperature: 75-86 F (24-30 C)
Community Tank environment
Until I move the dojo's, if I raise the temp, the dojo's will suffer, if I lower it, the clowns will not like it. Are you suggesting I raise the temp?
edit
Should I raise the temp to 78F?
Then I am getting conflicting information. According to www.loaches.com (http://www.loaches.com/),
Clown Loaches
Distribution: Sumatra and Borneo
Length: Up to 12in (30cm)
Diet: Worms, crustaceans, plant matter,and dried food
Water temperature: 75-86 F (24-30 C)
Community Tank environment
Until I move the dojo's, if I raise the temp, the dojo's will suffer, if I lower it, the clowns will not like it. Are you suggesting I raise the temp?
edit
Should I raise the temp to 78F?
This information on loaches online is correct because those are the temperatures they survive at. Ideal you will want their aqurium water to be at 80 degrees. I would not raise the temperature past 76 derees untill you can get the dojos in to their own tank...mind you you will have to do this ASAP! I would leave things the way they are, watch for signs of parasites, and start shoping for a new aquarium.
Shagmaster
12-05-2006, 11:07 PM
To repeat, I have the same problem. NO sand in tank. Temp is at or around 81 F. Water prams are normal, Amonia=0, nitrite=0, nitrate=5. Feed small amounts 3 times a day, alternate between flake, Hikari algea wafers, Wardly shrimp pellets, and Tubefix worms (cubes, also by Wardly) water changes= 30% every other day, IE 3 times a week. I use prime for water changes. No visible symptoms other than alot of flashing.
BioFilter
12-06-2006, 5:34 AM
To repeat, I have the same problem. NO sand in tank. Temp is at or around 81 F. Water prams are normal, Amonia=0, nitrite=0, nitrate=5. Feed small amounts 3 times a day, alternate between flake, Hikari algea wafers, Wardly shrimp pellets, and Tubefix worms (cubes, also by Wardly) water changes= 30% every other day, IE 3 times a week. I use prime for water changes. No visible symptoms other than alot of flashing.
Aside from sand and feeding, your tank is like mine. How long have your fish been doing this? What is the Ph? If your tank is at 81F, Im sure if it was ich, it would be visible. Maybe we can zero in on this.
To repeat, I have the same problem. NO sand in tank. Temp is at or around 81 F. Water prams are normal, Amonia=0, nitrite=0, nitrate=5. Feed small amounts 3 times a day, alternate between flake, Hikari algea wafers, Wardly shrimp pellets, and Tubefix worms (cubes, also by Wardly) water changes= 30% every other day, IE 3 times a week. I use prime for water changes. No visible symptoms other than alot of flashing. In your case it might be a reaction to very frequent water changes. Some of the species in your tank are very sensitive to any kind of changes. Do the fish flash violently or just a little bit?
BioFilter
12-06-2006, 9:13 AM
Ok, I have set up a 10 gal tank to temporarily house the dojo's. I stress the word 'temporarily', I need to shop around for a used 30/40 gal tank. I have funds issues, meaning I'm not rich. This tank is in an un-used room that stays around 50 F, so the dojo's will like it. Then I can bump up the main tank to 80F and watch for signs of parasites.
PS
On my main tank, I do about a 30/40% water change every 8 to 10 days. I also removed a small rock. It was colorful with red in it, maybe it had something in it. It didn't sizzle when I tested it last summer.
I would still heat the dojo's aquarium. 68-70 degrees should be good.
Shagmaster
12-06-2006, 11:48 AM
Fish have been doing this off and on for about a month and a half. PH is like 7.8 or higher, my test only goes that high. I do frequent water changes to keep the PH levels in the tank stable with the tap water. I am running 2 HOB filters (whisper, and a penguin 200 w/biofilter soon to have a 10 gal wet/dry sump.
Edit= Fish flash violently sometimes, mostly they flash against a rock or plant in passing. Tanks been at 81 degrees for about 3 weeks.
BioFilter
12-06-2006, 12:08 PM
Shagmaster, do you have natural rocks in your tank? What kind of ornaments do you keep and do you ever add salt? Also, what kind of fish are doing this? Mine are cory cats, dojo's, and clown loaches. Another similarity is that I use Prime.
Edit
Just read your sig on the kinds of fish.
PH is like 7.8 or higher, my test only goes that high. I do frequent water changes to keep the PH levels in the tank stable with the tap water.How different is the pH in your tank from the tap water? What is causing this difference?
Shagmaster
12-06-2006, 10:02 PM
All the roocks in my tank are granite and asorted round river rocks (small)
BioFilter
12-07-2006, 5:53 AM
Now that I removed the dojo's, I cranked the heat up to 80F and I still saw mild flashing by a cory and a clown. The clown seemed to just turn sideways and graze it's head into the sand, slow and deliberate.
Since the dojo's are isolated, I can watch them and if I have to, treat them in their little tank. This might determine if it is ich in their gills, or simply that their gills get irritated by other means.