Can't seem to get nitrite any lower

[MollyFan1]

As some may know, my tank is not cycled, I currently have 3 mollies and 2 albino cory cats. For the past two weeks or so, I've changed the water daily, about 50% everyday. The nitrites have remained at 0.25. Nitrate is at 10 and ammonia at 0. I'm becoming very frustrated since I can't get my nitrite at 0. I've been trying to make my fish as less stressed as possible. My male dalmation molly was becoming sick but he is back to normal again. My other fish have been fine from what I notice. They are active and eating. It seems like mollies are always hungry and always looking for food... I assume this is a good sign. I'm upgrading to a bigger tank sometime early next year for my mollies, I currently have a 10 gallon.

How can I get my nitrite at zero? This cycle process seems like never ending...=/

[NinjaPirate]

Do a single full water change. Leave the filter media in a bowl of tank water while you do so, with a similar setup for the fish. change out for treated water same temp level. That will remove everything from your tank water, without killing the bacteria in your filter, so long as you properly dechlor the tap water.

[Mgamer20o0]

i wouldnt do a 100% wc change. you could do 60-70% or maybe 2 50% a day until the levels drop.

[WeeNe858]

You can always add bacteria to help it along.

[Reddog80p]

As some may know, my tank is not cycled, I currently have 3 mollies and 2 albino cory cats. For the past two weeks or so, I've changed the water daily, about 50% everyday. The nitrites have remained at 0.25. Nitrate is at 10 and ammonia at 0. I'm becoming very frustrated since I can't get my nitrite at 0. I've been trying to make my fish as less stressed as possible. My male dalmation molly was becoming sick but he is back to normal again. My other fish have been fine from what I notice. They are active and eating. It seems like mollies are always hungry and always looking for food... I assume this is a good sign. I'm upgrading to a bigger tank sometime early next year for my mollies, I currently have a 10 gallon.

How can I get my nitrite at zero? This cycle process seems like never ending...=/

How often are you feeding your fish?

[MollyFan1]

Thank you the help. I've been feeding them just once a day and I drop a algae wafer every 2 days for the cories. I will do a 50% water change twice a day to lower the nitrites. It's taking a long time to get to 0. :sad:

[Shermanator]

Do nothing! Whats the bet that others here will disagree with me.
Well thats according to Mike Wickham of The complete idiots guide to freshwater aquariums. According to him Mother Nature will fix the nitrite problems all by herself. However he also states if the nitrite level is high and the fish look like they are dying or looking stressed you can possibly add a teaspoon of aquarium salt per gallon of aqaurium water. Salt apprently
makes nitrite less toxic. Secondly you can do a partial water change as this dilutes the nitrite. I myself am going through the nitrite spike with my fishy aqaurium oops fishy cycle I mean heee and it seems to be doing fine. I personally wouldnt go over a 25 percent water change.

[amosf]

Well, I always have salt in some of my tanks and still have deaths with a nitrite spike, so I'd be changing water. I'll do an 80% if I need to. The change doesn't worry them like high nitrites will...

'mother nature' will eventually 'fix' it - ie bacteria will populate the tank - but it may take time and the fish could die in that period...

Of course if it's borderline nitrite then sure, you can wait until the bacteria populate and you only need smaller water changes.

It's a matter of testing and monitoring the situation and acting accordingly. Mostly that is keeping the toxins to a 'safe' level.

[Rbishop]

Do the water changes until nitrites are 0.

IMO the Wickham book is basically worthless.

You will not need the salt.

[Shermanator]

Do the water changes until nitrites are 0.

IMO the Wickham book is basically worthless.

You will not need the salt.


Interesting opinion on the book. Which proves the point that thier is no
wrong or right way of doing things. Its pretty much what works for you and
what doesn't. Everyone has their opinion- I had a good read somewhere on the Aquarium Pharmacticals website or Fluval website (not Sure) that you should never do more than 50 percent water change. One things for sure
you only have to worry if the fish are dying right?? after all thats what really counts. So the way I look at things its like this- Stuff the ammonia levels, Stuff the Nitrite levels, do my weekly water change which is 25 percent of the tank size and eventually things will go ok. Figure out what the problem is if the fish are carking it and try to remedy it the best you can. Its as simple as that (for me). Seriously at the begining after my intiall 10 Platy bioload went in- I was a flustered/Panicked and doing water change after water change up to 80 percent at times for the first week to get ammonia levels down then dumping ammolock and making things worse- doing this I had my three platy loss. It was after reading the book that I thought stuff this "if I loose fish I loose fish" and went with my new metality of thinking that I noticed no deaths at all. Call it a fluke but at the end of the day it is working for me and I have no intention of changing it. Yesterday my Nitrite levels was high, I dumped in some aquariam salt, this morning I did my 25 percent water change and still looking good. Fish ain't dead- mission accomplished. My opinion the book is a good read and I like it and it made me relax. It may or may not work for others. Unfortunalty their is too many variables to consider to give an proper definitive answer to Nitrite/Ammonia related issues at the end of the day.

(Neon tetras are supposed to be a non-hardy fish- the cardinal tetras are supposdly even worse- My 10 cardinals went through the ammonia issues and are going through the Nitrite spike and are still alive and living happily! so their you have it)

[Reddog80p]

just becuase your fish are'nt dying and are still swimming don't mean they are healthy or happy!

[Rbishop]

There are right way and wrong ways to do things.

No, you don't worry, just when the fish are dying.

Proper care ahead of time, not after the fact, works for all.

[Shermanator]

just becuase your fish are'nt dying and are still swimming don't mean they are healthy or happy!


Doesn't mean they are not either unless humans can read the minds of a fish.

[Shermanator]

There are right way and wrong ways to do things.

No, you don't worry, just when the fish are dying.

Proper care ahead of time, not after the fact, works for all.


Differing opinions is ok and thats what makes things interesting. What I mean buy dying- is if something is wrong with the fish you can usually tell aka listlessness, floating to the top for air, or swimming in an akward fashion. Thats when I would check water parameters. If they seem alright eating and chasing around then thats what I will consider alright and happy and I wouldn't go changing things drastically. I hope none of you are offended. I am only stating how things differentiate between each other. For me it is trial and error.

[Rbishop]

The sad thing about that belief, is it doesn't have to be.

[Shermanator]

You see Why go to repair something that doesn't need to be repaired?
I am allowing also the mother nature aspect to assist in the development of the tank. I do agree with you to some extent rbishop. My opinion on the matter is if your are doing your regular maintainence then this also counts to being prepared ahead of time and not after the fact as you stated.
You can't do more than that unless you stay all day at the tank for the next 2 to 3 weeks doing water change after water change which bare in mind i think adds stress to the fish. At some point you have to stop and allow it to take its course.

[amosf]

I'm certainly not offended. I'm a farmer and deal with dying animals all the time and most are 'worth' more than fish... But with fish it's relatively simple as far as ammonia and nitrite goes. The fish will do well if you can keep the levels down, and that is easy with water changes. You don't have to wait until a fish is swimming upside down to know there is a problem. You can use a test these days and know that you will soon have fish swimming upside down and you can correct that *before* the damage is done.

The bacteria will establish just the same whether you keep the levels down or not. The fish will do better if you keep the levels down. So the best thing all round is to keep the levels down and let the bacteria establish and in time all will be well.

Hey, sure, I get nitrite spikes now and then. i evaluated the situation and the level and try to work out if it's temporary and whether (or how much) water change is needed. We have the tools these days that I didn't really have 30 years ago, so use them and make life easy for you and the fish...

Once the tank is established I find it plain sailing for many years with normal (easy) maintenance...

[Tommy Gun]

IMO and IME, there is something completely wrong with the tank as a whole if it is not cycled and there are no ammonia levels at all, but there are nitrite levels. I know I am sure that I havent read your other posts or anything, but unless the tank is very nearly cycled, you would have both small ammonia and a bit higher nitrites. I say this because the nitrates would then be much higher than 10 ppm unless you just did a water change...that make any sense?

I would invest in another test kit just to make sure that yours is not wrong, especially if it is test strips. With that many fish in there, and doing 50% water changes, you should not be nearly done cycling, in my opinion. This is one reason why cycling with fish actually takes longer, because when you have to do constant water changes, just to keep your fish alive, you are also taking out the bacteria's food (ammonia and nitrites), thus slowing things down a bit.

I think everyone is losing the focus of MollyFan's problem here, but I also wanted to chime in because I have noticed, over about four months since I joined, that rbishop is always getting slammed for trying to help you all cycle your tanks and do it in the most humane way possible. I am not trying to make anyone mad, and so please don't get defensive, but there are so many things that can happen negatively to a fish when it is in unhealthy or uncycled water and I just dont see why anyone would so passionately defend the thinking that it is 100% completely fine to do this. I am not saying that it cannot be done, but certainly should be avoided. Just because a fish is acting totally 'normal' and not listless or gasping for air, among the other visual ques that have been pointed out, does not mean that they are not being hurt at all. It would be the same as if one of us was stuck in a room full of smokers, the 'damage' that is being done is not always instant and has long lasting effects. Ammonia, even if it does not kill a fish, can burn its gills and do unreversable damage. You also cannot see or visually inspect a fish's slime coat most often and so how do you know the fish is healthy enough to fish off Ich and other problems when you have to replace fish during a cycle, without quaranteening them 99% of the time, because another one died?

My point is that when someone who is trying to point out how things could have been done better, they should not just be slammed and slammed from every different direction becasue there is a 'loop hole' to get around things. Everything has a consequence and the best situation would be to just cycle a tank without fish since it is now totally possible. Just because it was done in the past, does not mean it is the best method. As far as people who write books, sure most of them are qualified and full of good information, but I would also like to point out that Adolf Hitler wrote a book and I dont think anyone would quote everything he had to say as the best method for anything. I would be leery of any book 'for dummies' since all of those books are meant to written in very plain language so anyone can understand them and I am 100% sure that they do not explore all of the complicated issues behind certain situations dealing with keeping a fish tank. Just be mindful of people like rbishop and a few others, moderators or not, who really are trying to help out, and not create a debate every time he or she writes some advice.

[Tommy Gun]

You see Why go to repair something that doesn't need to be repaired?
I am allowing also the mother nature aspect to assist in the development of the tank. I do agree with you to some extent rbishop. My opinion on the matter is if your are doing your regular maintainence then this also counts to being prepared ahead of time and not after the fact as you stated.
You can't do more than that unless you stay all day at the tank for the next 2 to 3 weeks doing water change after water change which bare in mind i think adds stress to the fish. At some point you have to stop and allow it to take its course.

If you dont want to fix something that is broke, then why put fish in a tank that is not completely 'built' yet?

I think you are comparing apples to oranges Shermanator...sure you need to do regular maintenance and this will solve 99% of the problems that can happen in a tank, but that applies to a cycled tank, of which this thread is not talking about.

You simply cannot argue using mother nature as your scapecoat at all since if that was the case, your fish would be in a river or lake. Too add to that, you cannot say that your fish tank is even a drop in a bucket compared to a river, lake or ocean and so the same rules do not apply.

Why would you want to defend cycling with fish when mother nature never intended things to be that way and you can drop some fish food into a tank or add ammonia and walk away and let everything take its course? That is just a really unintelligable answer for people who want to defend a mistake.

[Shermanator]

Ok -I have of alot of respect for the advise that all forum members are stating. As I am no expert in the field thats for sure. I am not slamming rbishop- to the contrary I have alot of respect for his advise and he is very well informed. But you have to understand that we are talking of a global range of members here and certain ways of doing things in other countries.
If you go to Asia they have zillions of fish vegetating in a bucket. I point this out as loosley if you get the point.
As much as I would have liked to have done the fishless cycle in some parts of the world you can't buy ammonia of the shelf. So fishy cycles have to be done. For me this is a learning experience and the only way to learn is to converse with others to get a good perspective so that you could apply to your particular problem. Somethimes things dont work sometimes they do. Nobody is dismissing others opinions here as rubbish or I am not disagreeing with anyone for the sake of argument sake. Your taking it out of context TG. I was merely stating what is working for me at this stage of my cycle. I evaluate the problem as I encounter it not predict that next week I my fish might get a fungus so I should dump some medication into it. If you get my drift.
As I said before please don't get offended that is not the purpose that I am trying to establish here.

RBishop- Your the Man! - I hope I didn't offend you thats not my intentions.

[Tommy Gun]

I am not offended, like everyone seems to be debating here rather than arguing, so please dont think that I am 'saying' my posts in a mean 'tone of voice' either.

However, you can fishless cycle with a lot of methods, of which I really agree with rbishop's fishless cycling 'sticky' on this site. I also would disagree in that just because fish are in a different country, they still require the same needs. I also know that methods and product availability is different, but I felt that as it applies to MollyFan's questions here in this thread, there was a lot of advice that was just not the best and until now, no one has said anything about if she has access to ammonia or not. My point is not to debunk you or anyone, but try to help out MollyFan and in a lot of ways, I cannot believe that no one pointed out that her test results had something wrong with them.

I have traveled at least half way across the world so far, and live for almost three years in Germany, and so I know that keeping fish is pretty similar there as it is here. I also know that we all have access to nearly any product via the internet. I can buy a bottle of ammonia here in the US for less than an american dollar, so I am sure I could ship you some for less than 10 dollars, US, if you needed some. My point being, if you are not ready to sit by your tank quite a bit, or test daily mid-cycle, you shouldnt really be using fish to cycle a tank. I realize that in the past, people did this all the time, because they did not know better, but now days, it just seems contradictory to me for people to have the same huge problems over and over again and not want to accept the fact that it would be best to just take the fish back to a LFS and keep adding fish food to the tank until it is ready. I know we can get attached to fish, I certainly am to mine, but I would rather miss them but know they are still alive rather than risk their deaths. Know what I mean?

[Shermanator]

Our Australian Customs are extreamly stringent. I enquired to try to get Bio Spira here but was informed that wasn't worth the hassle. Any type of bacteria importation needs to apprently go through a regulating body. Not to sure about ammonia though.

[Tommy Gun]

BioSpira is not the end all, be all anyways and you do not truly need it. It is much more of a bacteria 'culture' than it is full blown bacteria. I cycled all my tanks without it and only use it when or more like IF I have a mini-cycle, which hasnt happened to me since I figured out what I was doing.

I really think the best thing to do, if you are going to cycle with fish, is to test your tank on a daily basis. You should almost always have ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates in a tank after the first couple of weeks. The bacteria in your tank comes naturally and you dont have to add it at all, although it helps to put in a bacteria culture or some filter media or substrate from another tank to get a 'jump start' on things. I find MollyFan's test results odd becuase she has had fish in the tank for a couple of weeks and so she should have some ammonia in there and much higher nitrates if there are nitrites in the tank. I am making this statement based upon the info that I know, so of course, there could be other reasons for tests like this, including it being a cycled tank and her water source has nitrites in it to begin with.

I certainly would not just 'let things go' because like I said, unhealthy water can cause problems to your fish that you cannot see. I feel that the goal should be to keep a fish in a situation in which it can live the longest, healthiest life possible. The secondary 'goal' is to have a tank that is fun to watch and look at. That is just me though and so I know some people may not really care about the fish themselves since they can always be replaced, but I cannot get myself to think that way.

Water changes are really the key here and so if there are high levels of any of the three parameters, that is what should be done. Like I said, it slows things down, but that is the price we pay. I would also put the tank at a temp of about 82 to 85 degrees F,very slowly, since the higher temp will help the bacteria grow and reproduce faster. Higher would be even better, but the fish need to be considered.

[Omega]

Doesn't mean they are not either unless humans can read the minds of a fish.You can kind of tell if a fish is healthy (and therefore happy) without reading their minds.

[NeonJulie]

Is it known at what level NitrItes become dangerous? Because I know they say "any is dangerous" but clearly during a fishy cycle, there would be some...

[Omega]

Why would you want to defend cycling with fish when mother nature never intended things to be that way and you can drop some fish food into a tank or add ammonia and walk away and let everything take its course? That is just a really unintelligable answer for people who want to defend a mistake.Good point. :clap:

[Mgamer20o0]

Doesn't mean they are not either unless humans can read the minds of a fish.
as one of the other members posted if you just watch your fish its not too hard to figure out if they are happy or not.

i look at peoples post and see if they are worthy to lessen too or not.

"If you go to Asia they have zillions of fish vegetating in a bucket." Shermanator
just because other people are handling their fish wrong doesnt make it right for others to do so also. people keep oscars in 20-30 gal tanks does this make it right for everyone to do so no.

"you can't buy ammonia of the shelf" there are other things you can use other then ammonia to get a cycle going such as fish food.

"Interesting opinion on the book. Which proves the point that thier is no
wrong or right way of doing things. " there is good ways and bad ways to do things.

i think i can go on but most people should get the point. not everything you read is good info. there are a lot of people giving out bad advise. not everyone gets it right ever time but lessen to the people who get it right most of the time.

[Shermanator]

You can kind of tell if a fish is healthy (and therefore happy) without reading their minds.

and also to mgamer200


You guys have hit the nail on the head. Thats exactly what I was trying to say. The comment was in relation to reddogs comment about my fish swimming around happily doesnt mean they are healthy view. Re-read his view.

When I mentioned in Asia the fish in the bucket comment- I am in no way condonning this type of treatment but merely stating a wide range of ways people are keeping aquarium fish. Their is obvioulsy a different technique involved in starting the tanks in the US than down here in OZ. On a personal view you guys are miles ahead of us in alternative ways to cycle your tanks. Like I said down here in Melbourne all the aqauriums that I have gone to do Fishy Cycles and none of them have heard of directly puting in Ammonia.

TG- Bio Spira was in relation to our customs control. Ammonia through the postal system would almost deffinetly be confiscated no doubt about it.
Also when I state mother nature - I am directly quoting from the book. I am getting the impression that most of you don't like the book. Despite Amazon.com's reviews stating very highly on it. By the way I had to import this book from the US. It is not even avaiable here. However using the techiniques in the book has proven in "MY" situation to have worked. Although it is hard for most of you to except it- My fish from "what I can tell" are coping fine depite my nitrite levels. When I was running off my head doing water changes everyday to drop ammonia levels I lost 3 fish in the process. Whether it was a direct cause is not fully understood and I have no proof that the water changes gave additional stress to them. I am only making an assumption.


With the nitrite levels I am doing a 25 percent water change in about 5 days and the fish appear to be coping fine. I am also using aquarium salt to nulify the effects of nitrite according to the book. Now this is working for me but may not work for others as you have to take into account that water parimeters can be totally different in each countries despite the bloke who wrote it living in the US. The book is in no way a be all and end all.

Finally I am in no way neglecting my fish- I love them dearly and hate to see anything happening to them. I frequently come to the forum to learn more from you all - not to state what is wrong and what is right.

I don't want to hijack this thread any longer but would like to know what is happening with Mollyfans tank in the hope I can further my knowledge on this very interesting and debatable hobby.

[Mgamer20o0]

your great book. i looked it up. the high ratings and the reviews seem to all come from people who dont know anything about fish keeping. so of course its going to sound great to them. they dont know better. i am not going to say a book is bad or good until i read it but the way you seem to present it doesnt seem very good. with out saying the book says or using quotes its hard to know what you are saying and what the book is. the book is also 8 years old. i am not sure when fishless cycling came around but it might have been before then. the info on there might just be outdated.

there are a lot of people that never heard of fishless cycle. i have had people yell at me and tell me i have to put fish in there to cycle. the internet connects everyone so there is no reason why other places shouldn't know also.

[Shermanator]

Well I consider myself a prime candidate for the book. I think we should get back to MollyFans intial problem solving. I think it is unfare on Mollyfan so if you want to continue debating feel free to post in my post.

[Mgamer20o0]

yep someone who knows nothing reads outdated info and tells everyone about it like they know what they are talking about. read up on the new ways of doing things and then go out and try to help people. i think more will come from it.

[Shermanator]

No need to get personal mate. It was no argument. I never said that I new everything sheez.

[MollyFan1]

Okay well I think I finally have my tank cycled!!! Thank you all for information and I'm sorry if this caused disagreements.

The test kit I've been using is from API called "Fresh Water master test kit". When I first posted I had just done a 50 percent water change. I just did another test and the last time I changed the water was 12 hours ago and my nitrites seem to finally be gone! It's at 0 ppm...I did another test of the nitrites just to make sure it was at 0 and I got 0.25 ppm and then I did it one more time and got 0 ppm.

So my results are:

Nitrites 0
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0

Does this make any sense?

I took pictures of the results

Nitrites, Ammonia and Nitrate in order from left to right
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d104/Tauress21/Picture042.jpg

I'm planning on getting a bigger tank for Christmas and I'm planning to do a fishless cycle this time. I want my 10 gallon for a betta and move my mollies and cories to a bigger tank. I'm so happy that my dear fishies survived this horrid cycle and I feel bad for putting them through hell and back. I just hope they are not damaged. I really care for my fish and only hope to give them the best home possible.

Thanks again! I really appreciate all the help I've gotten from the wonderful people on this site! :)

[MollyFan1]

The only thing now is that my pH is at 7.0 which is pretty low, it's been at this point for awhile now and I don't know how to get it up or if I should even attempt doing this. I posted this one time about the pH being low and someone said that fish will adapt to a steady pH but mollies need to be in a pH of 7.6...

Will a lower pH affect them?

[fishcatch22]

not really. mollies are one of the most adaptable fish on earth, living in FW with a pH of 7.0 to coral reefs with a pH of 8.2.

[blackwolfXKAV]

yeah, i've kept mollies in ph as low as 6.2 but i agree wholeheartedly that it is much better to keep them in high pH, if not Bw or SW.

[Mgamer20o0]

its better not to mess with your ph. they should be fine in 7.0 ph.

[Tommy Gun]

its better not to mess with your ph. they should be fine in 7.0 ph.


I cannot agree more with this statement! Mollies, as pointed out, must be one of the most versitile fish on the planet...at least as far as those that can be bought at an LFS anyways.

To try to buffer your Ph without completely understanding what you are doing can cause big swings in Ph, which can cause shock, even in mollies. While most freshwater fish can acclimate to a wide range of Ph levels, they need time to adjust and it is better to have a constant Ph rather than a spacific ph, especially with livebearers and community fish.

I dont think that 7.0 is a low Ph at all, it is simply neutral water. Your water's Kh/Gh will be the test you want to know if you want to know how steady your water will be able to hold this Ph. I also would keep testing your water parameters, just to be sure you are right that the tank is cycled. I say that not because I dont think you know what you are doing, but because it is safer to do so and you can tell how often and how much you will need to do water changes by nitrate levels. I wouldn't let them get over 40 ppm and change my water when they get in the 25-30 ppm range.

Good job though! Sorry the thread got off topic. I know I was part of that. I hope you can learn some things though! I ALWAYS like to go with the 'rule of three'...if you can find information from three TOTALLY unrelated sources, in the exact same form, it is most likely true. Oh, and opinions are not information! :)