euthenasia?

[aquatrippe]

Hey all,

Can I get some opinions about humanely putting a fish down that is ill or deformed?

For a long time, I believed that freezing was the most humane method but recently came across some debate about that.

It seems that some think this is only humane for coldwater fish that have a hibernation phase...like goldfish and koi.

Any thoughts? I believe it is wrong to let a fish that is definitely going to die suffer out its life..

[Hunter2001]

3 parts water, one part vodka

[RENEGADE]

huh thats it get your fish drunk before he dies:rolleyes:

[jiggerpolebill]

if you do a search here in 'general', youll find a few different threads on this subject. this usually turns into a pretty big debate. although its much harder for the aquarist to do, the fastest and least painful way to put the fish down is to remove it from the tank and quickly subject it to a firm blow with a heavy object. i know this sounds horrific and brutal, but the fish will be out of its misery before it even realizes its out of the water. as i stated, this is much harder on the aquarist than the fish. this practice is used frequently in fishing.

you can take the vodka for yourself to make it easier on you.

[Raithan Ellis]

Okay, I don't know where people get these ideas of smashing something being humane. But what the heck, it's just a lifeform... no biggie, right?

If you are concerned enough to ask, perhaps the smashing, cutting, vodka or other methods don't appeal to the side of your brain which processes a gentle touch to most living things.

One of the more appealing methods to me personally, is to use pure Clove Oil. In very, very small doses it can be used to desensitise fish, sedate them, make them unconsciousness or cause their brain to cease all functions without pain. Apply one drop per 4oz of tank water in a glass jar and stir it in... insert fish into the clove-laced jar. It should rapidly succomb to the effects of the clove, slowing down movements. Progressively the fish will cease to swim from the sedation, and finally the gills will stop functioning. Problem solved. If those 2 drops weren't enough, add another drop or two to the jar.

Cheers,
Raithan O. Ellis

P.S. If you take the time to do some research on this subject, you can find more accurate dosing methods to temporarily sedate fish, and then slowly bring them back to consciousness. Many marine fish are even captured using this method.

[jiggerpolebill]

i didnt say it was a pretty sight, did i? what is the purpose for putting down the fish? answer: to end the suffering that it is obviously in. do you think after youve put the fish down, it comes back in the afterlife and thinks "gee. that wasnt a very pleasant way to put me down."? the end result is the same. one way takes longer than the other. the unpleasantness of the method i suggested is experienced only by the fish keeper, so i believe that method to be more humane than playing hit and miss with clove oil drops. and where is the proof that the clove oil doesnt cause the fish ANY pain or discomfort at all? is it not also possible that clove oil might have different effects on different species of fish?

i would respect the life form enough to put its physical suffering over my own emotional hang-ups and end its misery as quickly as possible. i knew when i replied to this thread this was type of response it would draw. i hope you find the answer that can accomodate you and your fish in the most comfortable way, aquatrippe. putting it down in anyway isnt going to be easy.

for the record, i take no pleasure in "smashing" the life out of anything, so i resent your first comment made, raithan. id like for you to explain to me how ceasing the fishes misery and suffering the absolute fastest way when there is no other option or hope of the fish recovering is inhumane.

[Raithan Ellis]

jiggerpolebill - I never stated any methods were wrong, or that mine was right. Please do keep your stick on the ice. I have personally used your method several times... just don't enjoy the germs and mess involved. ;) *ker-splat* However, plastic wrap can do wonders for that!

Evidence on the pain subject can be found by a quick search on the web. The term anesthesia is commonly found in conjuction with clove oil and fish. It's not yet FDA approved (www.fda.gov/cvm/guidance/guide150.pdf) , however if you want to get really picky you can use Tricaine methanesulfonate, however that dosen't follow my DIY attitude. If you really want to go DIY crazy while keeping in the FDA spirit, it appears you can use baking soda or CO2!

Back to sipping on a Guinness and awaiting incoming flames...

Cheers!
Raithan O. Ellis

[jiggerpolebill]

no flames here.

but isnt "Okay, I don't know where people get these ideas of smashing something being humane. But what the heck, it's just a lifeform... no biggie, right?" a little sarcastic, leaving the reader to believe that the method i suggested is heartless and with no regard or respect for the life taken? thanks for editing the "courtesy" comment.

i havent had to put any of my fish down and i hope that i never do. i have had to put other pets ive had throughout my life down though, and everytime it had to be done, it was hard. some of those times it was done in a manner that was very hard to do, but it was the quickest way to end the suffering incurred(my kitten was run over by a car) and i know that the animal didnt have to suffer any longer than was necessary, so i took comfort in that.

my point was that our own feelings should be put aside and whats best for the fish should be considered. IMO, the fastest and least painful way is the best for the fish. my train of thought is this; if the fish is dead, it no longer feels anything, but if it's alive, but dying, it may still feel something. i realize that not everybody has it in them to do that and the other methods mentioned are more appropriate for them, but i feel that they are more for the fishkeepers peace of mind than the fish. again, thats my opinion.

i appreciate the link and will consider it in the future if i ever have to be in that situation.

the stick's still on the ice. have a guiness for me too.
:)

[TomFromStLouis]

One method that I have heard of that I intend to use if I ever need it is ice water. Net them and drop them into some icy water and the job is done in a second or two. Sounds like a big improvement over the slow freezer method I have heard of.

[Dr.Guppy]

I would agree with Jiggerpolebill that hitting them over the head with a heavy object, such as a hammer, is the best way. I would recommend though that you cover the fish in a tissue or something alike first though. I found a very interesting debate on this topic when looking through this forum. Look back through, I think it was started by Partyanimal1UK - it does not look like a euthanasia topic from the title, but it is.

One way of thinking about it is this....it is better to kill them than let them suffer.

[jiggerpolebill]

yeah i suppose i should have specified not to do it without covering first. i just thought that was a 'gimme'. if you can find a way to completely miss witnessing whats going on altogether, then all the better.

[slipknottin]

Just do it anyway you want. Fish dont feel pain anyway.

[thalassic park]

Someone got it right.
The fish is dead, and its the action taken by you that you are able to live with that matters.

Sick or deformed fish can be a good meal for piscivores. Recycle the nutrients.

[Heady]

Put him in a ziploc of water in the freezer. He'll go to sleep.

[Roland]

I agree with jiggerpolebill, if a fish is both a) clearly suffering and b) terminally ill, then quick, straitfoward anihilation will cease this suffering before it knows whats going on.

But this subject is a cause of great debate in all forms of life and everyone is entitled to their own views on it.

[scott]

Decapitation works pretty fast too. That's the only personal experience I have but I've heard of people saying seltzer water is the way to go.

[RENEGADE]

go jiggerpolebill!;)
hit over the head(although the hammer idea will work for BIG fish i think its a little over kill for small, but it will still get the job done)
as for the water soltions(i.e. clove oil, ice water, selzer water) how would you like to be put in a room and all the air be replaced by C02 or pure O2 and just suffacate(sp?) thats painfull

[isaac newton]

Feeding your deformed fish to a oscar seems to work as well

[K_S_W_I_S_S]

slipnottin, why do you say fish dont feel pain???

[slipknottin]

why do you say they do? ;)


Fish dont have the brain development neccessary to have the psychological feeling of pain.

[K_S_W_I_S_S]

do you seriously think that they dont feel pain??

[ChilDawg]

There is enough research to back him up on that. I believe in killing fish in a manner in which they flop around the least, but I know that they don't feel pain...I just feel better not seeing them do their best approximation of suffering.

[TomFromStLouis]

I am far from a neuro-anything, but I would guess that pain is not a psychological event , but a relatively hardwired nerve response. Whatever.

I think that most of us would agree that FAST is an important part of doing this right, which is why slowing getting too cold in a freezer does not work for me but dropping in ice water does. The Big Blow method meets the quick and effective test, but simply is too messy and graphic for me.

[slipknottin]

Im not going to argue, but there is far more evidence suggesting fish dont feel pain. Tom, dont mix reaction to stimuli with the awareness of pain. They are generally seperate. We associate the two together because when we experience pain it is reaction to stimuli.

http://www.g-feuerstein.com/Presse/fishpain.htm

And as Ive said before, that fish dont feel pain doesnt mean that abuse wont injure them. But they will not have the emotional feeling of pain.

[carpguy]

By the same token don't confuse awareness of pain with pain. They are separate events.

[slipknottin]

Well, you do need to be aware of pain to feel it. :D

[serjuanca888]

In my opinion everything feels pain as an unpleaesnt feeling. Think about, what keeps the fish from caring if something is eating it. If it didnt feel pain, it wouldnt do anything. It may not be pain as we conceive it, but they feel something and in my opinion it has to be an unpleasent feeling.

[slipknottin]

Here is that argument taken on by Dr. Rose


It is very important to note that the flight responses of a hooked fish are essentially no different from responses of a fish being pursued by a visible predator or a fish that has been startled by a vibration in the water. These visual and vibratory stimuli do not activate nociceptive types of sensory neurons so the flight responses can’t be due to activation of pain-triggering neural systems. Instead, these flight responses of fish are a general reaction to many types of potentially threatening stimuli and can’t be taken to represent a response to pain. Also, these flight responses are unlikely to reflect fear because the brain regions known to be responsible for the experience of fear, which include some of the same regions necessary for the emotional aspect of pain, are not present in a fish brain. Instead, these responses are simply protective reactions to a wide range of stimuli associated with predators or other threats, to which a fish automatically and rapidly responds.

[isaac newton]

I say run it over with your car tire or smash it with your shoe

[slipknottin]

How effective could running it over with your car be?

You need to bag up the fish, bring it outside, place it under your wheel, start your car, drive forwards, make sure you ran over the bag, and make sure you got the fish and it didnt get away...

Seems like smacking it with a hammer or chopping its head off with a knife would be quite a bit simpler.

Or you could drop it out of a 3 story building I guess. :confused:

[aquatrippe]

Lot to think about in this thread..

Thanks for all your replies..

[isaac newton]

All do respect but i find this thread kinda silly :p.. Finding ways to kill your fish humanely... Hmmm.. I just put it in a sink Aerator turn it on and end of story.. You guys actually make these formulas to kill ur fish??? hmmmmm....

[RENEGADE]

isaac has a point. what happen to just flushing them:confused:

[isaac newton]

Yeah thats what i was thinking as well :confused:

[VoodooChild]

Fish can actually survive in the sewers for awhile. If you guys are arguing about pain just think about living in a gas chamber for 2 days and every breath burns your lungs. I personally just put them in a plastic bag and rap them onto whatever. 5 seconds after they're out of the water they're out.

[Dr.Guppy]

Is there anyone who protests to hitting them over the head? If not, then theres the solution. Of course, there are alot of other methods both old and new. Fish can survive a flushing down the bog...but they will probably die of ammonia poisoning once they are down there. And freezing a fish would just slow down their immune system until it has slowed down so much that they experiance the desired effect....death. But that would be a slow death. i wouldnt recommend suffocating a fish, or just taking it out of water. These are another two examples of a slow death.

I agree with Slipknottin in the fact that fish do not feel pain in the emotional sence, but then I do see where it is being approached from that they do feel something. Either way I do not think it would be fair on the fish to prolong a death.

Hope all that helps,
Michael.

[slipknottin]

If a fish has some disease, why would you want to release it into the sewer where most likely it will end up in a river or the ocean?

[ChilDawg]

Not to mention that flushing a fish is akin to drowning a litter of kittens in a sack.

[baxter]

WHEW! This has got to be the single most depressing thread I've ever seen. I realize it's an important topic, but good grief, enough is enough. I took my leporinus to my LFS yesterday to trade him for some other fish and that was bad enough. It pains me to take a fish that has died out of the aquarium and wrap him up to throw away, I can't imagine having to smash one's brains out.

This is the last time I read this thread.

[BluEyes]

Originally posted by slipknottin
Here is that argument taken on by Dr. Rose

"the flight responses of a hooked fish are essentially no different from responses of a fish being pursued by a visible predator or a fish that has been startled by a vibration in the water"


ya' know, I'll bet the flight response of a hooked human, and a human who has just seen something which he is pretty sure will EAT him are about the same as well!
Fish don't have any hands to fight back with - only their mouths. And if a fish has just been hooked and there is no apparent way to fight back against it's assailant, what else WOULD it do? Just lay there and give up? Sorry, that just isn't what wild animals do. It is going to use its only option that has a chance of preserving its life - flight.

I think that's a pretty weak argument pain is not an emotional response - it's a physical response. Pain is the body telling the brain "what is happening is damaging us!". Pain is the organisms way of keeping itself healthy and intact.
People react the way we do alot becase of society. Look what happens when you act in pain-people come to comfort you, you get attention, pretty girls, etc.
OTOH, if you're on a football team, acting in pain might not get you the same attention, you might get negative attention even. So, the person doesn't ACT in pain. But, we can't say that just because the person doesn't outwardly show their response to pain that it doesn't hurt.
Fish are much like the second example- they are wild animals, and ANY show of weakness is a direct threat to their survival. If a tetra ACTS wounded, a predator will see that, and single that fish out, thinking the wounded fish will be easier prey.
I do not accept that the absence of the ability to couple a human emotional response with pain doesn't mean that fish don't experience pain.

[scott]

Just a thought. You talk about flushing a fish and it being in the sewers and perhaps ending up in a river or an ocean. What if you have a septic tank? I would think the chemicals in there would put down anything PDQ, hell I've seen an open one make a human faint.

[Dr.Guppy]

Well I dont suppose you'd get around to doing much killing if you fainted in the process. lol. I have been looking through the euthanasia threads on this forum, and it would appear that this is not the only one which has sidetracked into a debate on whether fish feel pain. I guess the two come as a pair, aie? I find it strange that, as fishkeepers, we seem to know plenty of methods on how to kill fish....isnt the main aim of our hobby to keep them alive? lol.

[carpguy]

originally posteed by Slip, quoting Dr. Rose
…these flight responses are unlikely to reflect fear because the brain regions known to be responsible for the experience of fear, which include some of the same regions necessary for the emotional aspect of pain, are not present in a fish brain. Instead, these responses are simply protective reactions to a wide range of stimuli associated with predators or other threats, to which a fish automatically and rapidly responds.

I caught my leg on the (very sharp metal) corner of a desk the other day. It was quite painful. I was not afraid of the desk. I was not sad that my leg hurt. It focussed my attention quite dramatically, as it is designed to do as an automatic response to a threatening stimuli. An early brain reflex. There was an incident in my mind where I experienced an "Ow, that really hurt (or words to that effect)". Quite separately there was a sharp burning sensation radiating through my thigh. I read Dr. Rose's article the last time this came up and I still think he's talking about the focus and the "Ow!" I'm not clear on where he's eliminated the very unpleasant sensation in my leg, or on how he could without interviewing a fish.

The blender, garbage disposal seems quick. The hammer seems messy, but quick. The vodka, clove oil seem quite peaceable and efective all at once. Flushing seems like a bad idea.

Maybe we are anthropomorphizing. When in doubt, play the safer line. Humanity is a habit.

[VoodooChild]

Alright, Carpguy's wounded and no longer a show specimen. How do you want it? We can rap ya over the head, a vodka bath, or we can freeze you.:D

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

Just do it anyway you want. Fish dont feel pain anyway. im supprised thom336 didnt bite your head of for that remark:D :D

at the moment my oscar which i have have for 5 years is increadably sick nothing i have tried so far will improve his noticeably as you have seen my threads which have been quiet frequent with updates on his condition i have been told to use melafix which im trying to get my hands on and geo liquid which i have ordered.and the final 1 was to put him down which everyday seems more and more likley to happen and realy it hurts me even thinking about me not seeing him in my tank everyday like i have been for the last 1800 odd days ive owned him and to see you people making jokes about it realy craps me and if you were in my situation i bet you would feel the same way the only human one on this thread whould be the one with the oil so please dont be a bunch of idiots (well some not all) suggesting throwing in to a sink grinder what kind of sick retard would do that wake up to your self have some consideration for the people who enjoy this hobby

this is a picture of my oscar when he was about 1 year old he looks abit ugly cause he got in a fight with a 50cm wolf cichlid by brother put in their for a joke(sick joke at that) his just getting his scales back

ignore the date i dont know how to fix it

[BluEyes]

okay, so some people will probably never agree on whether fish can or do feel pain or not.
Since we can't communicate telepathically with our fish (or with anything for that matter) we really can't be 100% sure anyways.
Soooo, if we say that we can't determine either way, wouldn't you still rather err on the side of respecting another being, just in case they can, for the sake of regret?
I mean, it's not exactly that hard to put a fish down in a humane manner, so why not just grant them that respect, simply because they are a sentient life form?

[1 fish 2 fish]

For me it's not the pain that the fish feels, but the constant survival instinct for fear that the fish goes through. Fish have an instinct to survive, which is fear. When you are scuba diving and and big fish attacks you you feel fear, which isn't very pleasant, that is your survival instict, which causes you to try and run or somehow get away from whatever is causing the fear. For fish a reason to euthanise would be when it is deformed. It it is deformed to the point where it can't effectivly flee from predators. Tt is struggling to to get away, but it can't because of the deformaties, so it is constantly is a state of fear. It's like you knowing you can't run from the shark,m no matter how hard you try because you were born with bad legs. Except the fish can't realize this, so it is always trying to run, not a pleasant feeling.
It's the fishe's suffering from an ever present survival instinct. That I try to end not pain, so whether or not they feel pain is a moot point to me.

I'm not the best at debating, but hopefully you get my point.

[TheDuBdoNe]

point well taken...

[Dr.Guppy]

I agree with BluEyes. I dont think that you should kill or treat fsh unhumanely just because you do not believe they feel pain. Just think the 'what if I am wrong?' - those who chose the route of respect, and find out fish dont feel pain, have lost nothing. But those who used the 'unhumane' methods, and find out fish do feel pain, have caused such lengths of pain to their fish.

It doesnt take any longer to use humane methods, in fact they are designed to be quick and easy. It would not mean going out of your way, but it could mean saving a fish a whole lot of pain if they do feel it.

Always happy to provide points to ponder,
Michael.

[Mantis_22]

my god people, if its about to die LET IT DIE, take it out put it in a bowl and until it dies big woop. If your religious for the matter jesus didnt create suffer and pain for nothing... Its all apart of life, you think I would get a hammer hit at me as im pulled out of a bed in a hospital when I'm about to die? I think not????

[ChilDawg]

Originally posted by Mantis_22
my god people, if its about to die LET IT DIE

Interesting that you mentioned that, as this thread appears to have died in April. There is a euthanasia thread in FW Newbie, if you're interested in helping someone with your insight.

[Mantis_22]

sorry, it seems im always behind since work kills me :(

[ChilDawg]

It's okay...I just wanted to let you know that there was still somewhere to talk about this, as this thread is pretty old.

[RENEGADE]

diggin up died threads huh?!

[bimmersamster]

Glad you're amused, but no need to share.

[Nippy]

Here's the correct recipe to permanantly put a fish to sleep:

2mL clove oil mixed with 8mL vodka per every 1 gallon water. Fish must be left in solution for several hours.

I had to put down a fish before I left on vacation. I was very surprised at how fast this method worked and how easy the fish went to sleep. This is the method I will use from now on.
The vodka is only used to help the clove oil dissolve into the water. As for the feeling guilty part, it's sad, but it's worse to watch an animal suffer, starve and slowly die, dragging out its days.

[CHINABOY1021]

LOL at bimmer

[RENEGADE]

how do we "euthenasia" this post???!!!;) :p

[oranda]

Honestly don't believe you guys.

Ice is good for tinies and very dire emergencies .... but I have found out that I have a very, very good vet who will put any fish of mine (only one so far but since I had her for about 16 years it was a tragedy) down professionally without pain for a few £ or even $. You are willing to invest loads of dosh for fish / equipment why not invest some effort and money into finding a vet and pay the small amount to give the fish a decent entry into the eternal fish grounds - so to speak.

So get real guys, living creatures are not DIY projects !!

[ChilDawg]

It is somewhere around $30 to go to a vet to euthanize my fish. Or I could do it myself with one of these solutions espoused here. I think clove oil and alcohol work well, so I will go that route. Your criticism is unwarranted..."living creatures are not DIY projects." I am not thinking that mine are DIY projects, but I cannot afford to pay $30 to euthanize a fish, not to mention that, since I don't have a car, I would have to leave the poor thing suffering for days until I could get someone to give me a ride. Give me a break...you wouldn't do it either.

I'll thank you not to criticize every single one of these methods here unless you have SCIENTIFIC PROOF that EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM is CRUEL. Until that point, please do as you would do, with the exception of criticizing those of us with more limited means.

[RENEGADE]

the vet probly use clove oil:p

[oranda]

seriously not ! BUT .... won't go any further into that but can assure you that vet did not use clove oil. Sometimes it does pay to check out what you local vet offers - mine didn't think twice to phone a colleague 600 miles down the road to ask him what, when and where - not all vets live miles away and charge a fortune.

'kay guys - patience and compassion with all :D

[ChilDawg]

Okay, it just came off a little harsh from this end, and I responded as what I considered to be in kind. I apologize, and would like to take this opportunity to welcome you to Aquaria Central! :)