Extinct in the wild, but alive in our aquariums.

[Billy Bob]

While searching through a list a animals extinct in the wild, I came across a familar name, Epalzeorhychos bicolor. The red-tailed black shark. Appently, this common aquarium fish is completly gone from its native habitat in Thaliland. Why? From the demand of the ornimental fish industry. The aquarium hobby may have been a blessing and a curse, wiping them out from their habitat, but because of their popularity, they're not going anywhere soon.

Also, I rember hearing that the White Cloud Mountain minnows were extinct from the area that they were first discovered from, but can be found in other parts of the region still.

Just as a side note, has anyone ever thought about having a species survial plan for certain fish species, such as the rarer ones and ones vulnerable to distruction. Sort of like a captive breeding program, just in case. I know they do this all the time in Aviculture, just wondering if it would be an idea for some fish species as well.

[ChilDawg]

I think that a lot of plans are extant, but many of the ones for rainbowfish, at least, involve wiping out the entire contingent of fish in an area, as the non-natives are pretty good at evading destruction. This is why we don't work more strongly on the issue...well, this, and pollution-riddled areas.

[carpguy]

A lot of the fish extinctions, at least in SE Asia (and I assume elsewhere as well, but the population densitiy makes the problem more acute in Asia) aren't due to the aquarium trade so much as to loss of habitat. Dams, for one, are massively disruptive (hydroelectric is not an enviromentally friendly energy source but that rant :mad: may be best left for other forums). Deforestation and urban sprawl, industrialization and the associated water pollution…

The damming of the River Kwai is what knocked off my poor little Sidthimunkis. I've heard that they're more or less gone in the wild and survive only as a smallish semi-captive stock on a fish farm somewhere in Thailand. Very rarely known to breed in tanks. I think the bicolor is another victim of dams, but that the cherry barbs in Sri Lanka are feeling the pinch from deforestation and sprawl. Habitat loss in each case.

I know the International Betta Congress has a species maintenance program (http://www.ibc-smp.org/index.html) to try to preserve the integrity of betta species within the hobby as well as to maintain species threatened in the wild. Don't know of any others.

[Billy Bob]

http://home.conceptsfa.nl/~pmaas/rea/extinctanimals.htm
http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=7807


Here's the link for the red-tailed shark. It says a direct link with collecting, but daming may have played a large role too.

-carpguy, I do have to agree with you two there, with the deforestation and dams are definitly more distructive then the ornamental fish industry.

[thalassic park]

Lake Victoria and the introduction of 'nile perch' (barras') decimated the cichlid population in 50 or so years.

[ChilDawg]

Not only did the perch do that, but munching on bottom-dwellers caused the bottom layer of the lake to become anoxic. Creating fisheries in different parts of the world is stupid if they destroy the native species (the haps of Victoria are easily sun-dried and found to be more tasty than the Nile Perch). We, as hobbyists, must work to keep this from happening elsewhere as well.

[ScottoMacD]

The one that really got me was the intoduction of the snakehead to madagascar as a food source for the growing population.

The snakeheads in return completely destroyed the entire cichlid population. The amount of native fish left there now is so small it is discusting.

Madagascar had some of the nicest natural species of cichlids that I have ever seen. Truly is a shame.

[wayne]

There are a good number of aquarium species that are now pretty much extinct in the wild. The livebearer specialist people and the killifish specialists seem pretty good and organised at keeping these species extant.
There was a big plan to put multiple dams on the Rio Xingu in Brazil for hydro power, but fortunately they were cancelled - enviromental impact was one of the reasons - these would have done large numbers of plec. species no good at all, including the Zebra Plec, Goldie plec and Scribbled.
Fish collecting is a good, sustainable income for amazonian people, and I hope it works out as a factor in favour of actively preserving species.

[jiggerpolebill]

let me throw this out for discussion...

should these species that are extinct or are facing extinction in the wild, be so accessable to fish keeping?

here's an example that came to mind while i was reading this thread. there's an LFS around the corner from me that got in some Sidthimunkis a couple of weeks ago. i believe they were selling them for either $9.99 or $19.99(i think $10, because it seemed incredibly cheap). i came home to look them up to see if they were the real thing and they are.

doesnt this seem like a cheap price for a fish species that could be in jeapordy and doesnt reproduce easily in the aquarium? should the price be hiked a little so that even if lil timmy whines to his parents to make them buy it for him to put in his 10g with his oscar, bala shark and 15 neons(exaggerated), they wont?

[BluEyes]

The problem isn't justthe aquarium trade, or dams, or sprawl - it's human overpopulation. There are TOO MANY of us, period.

Yes, I belive the hobby probably has contributed, but I'll bet other causes are equally to blame. So, why single out hobbyists? We don't have the $$$$$$ that developers do. Wouldn't want to issue a hugereport saying that this big huge dam that supplys power to millions is the bad guy, now would we? Either way, hobbyists, or developers, both are a result of population. Less people, less sprawl. Less people, less hobbyists.

I remember not that long ago, world population was like 5 billion. Now it's what? 6, 7, 8 billion? I've lost track! Either way, it's too dang much!
What we all need to do is like China- one kid. That's it- one. After that one, you get your tubes tied (male or female) no questions asked. What, are you THAT special that the world needs so many of your kids? Sorry, I'd like to have some resources, and some space left for the next few generations.
Want to raise 8 kids? Fine - Adopt - there are plenty of wonderful kids waiting for adoption worldwide.
We need to stop breeding like mad while there's still space left, and still other species in the wild. Heck, we need to stop while there's still wild space left- not one planet-wide sprawl!

[scott]

Blueyes I couldn't agree with you more. If you look at the one link that has driven any species to extinction in the last several hundred years (fish, birds, mammals anything) it is humans. Wether it is someone building a dam for power or housing tracts or cattle farms or just some good ole polution the one common factor is people. Now I would have to say in my opinion people who want to collect the species or just simply tag and observe them are the least threat. Still a threat but less so. As far as human babies I would be interested to see the statistics on what percentage of children are born to mothers twenty or younger and what their education level was. Any action that you speak of would of course have to be government regulated and I doubt that could ever happen in our country as it is a free country not a communist one. (I swear I am not being antagonistic) That I think however belongs on a different website. Just a side note my wife is a juvenile probation officer and three of her female kids have children yet seven of her males have multiple children (two or three) all by different girls. this is based on a caseload of twenty seven juvenuiles. But like I said this is a discussion for a different website.

[carpguy]

Well, yeah, there are an awful lot of us. Its going to have an impact. So are we then better off saying, well there are just too many of us or trying to mitigate the impact?

Dams mostly provide free foreign cash from the WTO who are happy to pay it because it means a new market for the equipment and expertise needed to install these things. They are extremely disruptive habitat wise, displace lots of folks who then go live in poverty elsewhere, cause a lot more pollution than most people realize, have a limited lifespan, and aren't a particularly clean or efficient way to generate power. If they weren't massively subsidized the market would not provide them. The fact that they wiped out numerous fish like the sidthimunkis (who seem to go for about $20 ea, on the few occasions I've run across them — too small and shoaly to press the market higher) is really not the argument against them, just an additional and unfortunate negative.

The nile perch is another example of an attempt to make a buck that backfired because the consequences weren't considered. The area was devastated economically by it. If the only argument against it was that some cichlids were going to be wiped out, well maybe we need to look at the greater good. There was no good, greater, lesser, or otherwise. It was a disaster from every angle.

As for overpopulation, most of the advanced industrialized nations have stable or declining birthrates. The boom isn't happening here. The boom is happening in third world countries that aren't really prepared to handle it or stop it. Civil wars, famines, and plagues will eventually dictate the planet's carrying capacity. But in the meantime, yeah, its bad for the fish (and birds, mammals, plants, etc).

End of rant…

[Fisher Price]

Many fish that were once sparce in the wild even before the evil mankind came along are now alive by the thousands thanks to us fish fans. The blind cave fish is just one example of fish that can thank humans for its high population. If all the blind cave fish from every pet store, Walmart, Asian and Florida fish farm, home aquarium etc. were all put together I doubt the cave pools they originated from would hold them all and still have room for water.

Its about wildlife management, controlled hunting and conservation, Whitetail deer, bison, Canada geese, cougars etc. were all close to extiction at one time and this is back when there were many more wild areas and fewer people.

As far as Chinas' one child policy, if you like it so well go live there and have the Communists chart your menstrual cycles, and force abortions and infanticide on you while the leaders have as many babies as they want. Its all about government control of the people, Taiwan has many more times the population per area and is many times wealthier and well fed because they are capitalist and can keep most of what they produce.

The overpopulation senerio is turning out to be another socialist lie. Europe, Japan, and the US all have to import low skill labor because the native population is in decline and graves are outnumbering cradles. At the same time we let grain outside in the weather to rot because the bins are overflowing thanks to new hybrids, and the value is too low for a farmer to make money without Gov. subsidies. I will not even bring up the subject of severe obesity among the american population, lets just say no one appears to be starving in the world except in the countries where the Gov. steals the crops or the food we send them.

[BBN]

FP I couldn't agree more. The overpopulation problem isn't here. Yeah China is very populated, but 80% of it's citizens live in he eastern quarter so it's not like they have no room for everyone. As far as government control over families that's wrong too.That rule only exist in China where human rights are horrible and 2nd children are being aborted by the law of China. China has orphanages full of little girls because the parents gave them up since they would rather have a boy to work on their farm. That's a rough decision. To have to give up your own daughter because you need an extra farmhand. My wife and I do very well financially, own two cars and a house and still have enough money to do things we want. We also want 2 kids. I have one from a previous marriage. Does that mean my wife can't have any because my daughter already counts? The problem isn't bad in the US and what little problem there is exist in homes where a single parent has 5 kids with 5 different fathers and still won't practice any type of birth control. That's not causing an environmental problem, only a budget problem. Like other say it's urban sprawl mainly in Asia where rivers are being damned up to provide for overpopulated cities.

[slipknottin]

I vote for letting people do whatever the hell they want.

If everyone wants to ransack nature and pollute go right ahead. When you get old and theres no food because the pollution whiped out all the crops in the world then its your own **** fault.

We go into another massive extinction (which have happened often in history actually) humans go bye-bye, and another more advanced animal takes over.

[Dr.Guppy]

Collecting fish from he wild for aquarium trade is what sustains alot of villages - if we decide we dont want the wild fish, their whole economy will fall. They rely on us wanting the wild fish in order for them to make enough money to survive. And so a dilemma is found: do we stop the trade of wild fish to save the fish from extinction, or do we continue the trade of wild fish to save many villages from starvation?

Schemes are being set up so that only certain amounts of fish from sustainable colonies an be collected from the wild - such as the cardinal tetras, who seem to be able to keep up their numbers. These sort of schemes benefit both parties, and I am all for them.

Slipknottin, I feel that as fish keepers we should care what happens, for it is our desire for the fish over the decades that has ultimately created the problem.

Michael.

[wetmanNY]

Statistically, you know what is just as effective as a ruthless population-control policy? College education for women. You don't have to force anything, just give women more education. Make that mandatory. In Japan and parts of Western Europe, the population is holding steady and even shrinking a little. Women lawyers, women biologists, women geologists: give a woman a chance for a real career and she has a real choice!