need assistance on setup please!

[TwanDizzle]

hey guys, i thought i'd try this again, since my previous post has basically been ignored... 34 some odd views and no replies...

ok, i've got a 55 gal, that i'm converting to a marine aquarium... here are my questions...

first of all, here is my proposed setup... FOWLR!; a yellowtail damsel, an ocellaris clownfish, a diamond watchman goby, and some sort of a tang... ok, i got this from http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/sbegin-fish.html#fish.... since this is my first attempt at a SW, i figured it would be best to get something reasonably easy to take care of, and then in the future, try soemthing else...
having this kind of setup, what filtration system(s) do you guys recommend? i don't think this is enough to really need one of those systems that sucks water through a tube down to a massive filter under the tank, and then returns it to the tank (wet/dry, sump, whatever its called)... also, will i need a protein skimmer for this setup?

as far as the initial setup, can i put in 50 pounds of livesand and 50 pounds of liverock at the same time to start the cycling process? are there any other recommendations besides this? i just don't want a bare tank that looks dead sitting there while i cycle it, and from what i understand, the liverock will have stuff growing on it that would be a little more appealing to the eye...and IMO, it wouldn't be considered a "fish killing cycle"..

i have another question... i found a website, saltwaterfish.com, that has a 20-55 gallon reef package that has as assortment of hermit crabs, snails, 2 brittle starfish, a coral banded shrimp, some emerald crabs, and 2 cleaner clams.... would this be too much for my 55 gallon tank, even though they claim that it is for aquariums between 20 and 55 gallons? i mean, there will be a total of 58 animals in there just from this package, and even though they are tiny, it just seems like thats a lot... i also figure that some will die from selective... uhm.. what's the word... anyway, they give you extras in case a bunch of them die... that's it... but would you guys recommend this or a similar package from liveaquaria.com (their "tank cleaners")

umm, i beileve that's all i need to know... i just need to know really fast because i'm ready to start this thing... whether it be the filter system that i need to buy first or the livesand/liverock...

[Fishieness]

ill try to tackle this post one question at a time. lol.
first off, i wouldnt recomend any tang in a 55 gallon. for the most part, they all get very big and need more swimming space than a 55 can offer.
for the filter, a sump would be recomended, but it isnt necessary. if you have a lot of live rock, then a simple hang on back filter to run some carbon will do well. iwould also recomend a protein skimmer on any tank. which one you get will depend if you have the money to get a sump and how much money you have for a skimmer.
you can add the sand and lr at the same time. if you are getting a watchman goby though, i would recomend putting the rock on the bottom and then let the sand fill up around it. that way, you will better prevent rock slides. i would recomend more live rock though. id go with at least 80 pounds if you are not goign to do a sump. but some other people may have different opinions. i have between 90-100 pounds in my 40 breeder.
the tank packages are usualy a good place to get a good idea what you might need. but it isnt always necessary. having only a few fish in a 55, you may not need a super large amount of something. but it doesnt hurt. also, i wouldnt get the cleaner clams. unless you have phytoplankton in your tank or feed them, they usualy die.

[TwanDizzle]

cool deal... i've already got 2 HOB's, one of which came with the tank (i got it from wally-world, as a "deluxe starter kit", containing the tank, lights, a heater, and a filter) see, that's why i was wondering about the filtration and stuff... i didn't know if a saltwater and freshwater system would use two different kinds of filters.. if i do decide to get a sump filter, will it make the tank look less cluttered? that's about the only reason i'd want to, since the actual filter is hidden... i want the tank to look as natural as possible.. as in no wires showing, no bulky HOB, and if there were any way possible, no heater getting in the way... i mean, i could hide the actual heater behind the LR or something, but i'd still have the power cord showing, unless i opted to drill a hole in the tank while its empty, and run the heater through it and seal it up real good... but no, i don't want to do that... my next question is about lighting... i know for anemones and fullblown reef tanks, i need very specific lighting, but with the setup i want, will it be necessary? i hate to have so many questions, but all i know is freshwater, and i hardly know that much... i just want an easy to care for system with very few complications, or trial and errors.. so i want to get as much info as i can before i jump into it! my FW tank was just too much hassle without enough enjoyment to keep it running... day after day, everything looked the same... and i feel with a SW aquarium, the liverock will surprise me all the time... i like the idea of coming home one day, going to feed the fish and HEY, that little piece of rock turned out to be a clam of some sort! a girl at work was telling me about her husband's tank, and there was a presumedly dead clam on a piece of LR, and recently, they noticed that its either growing its muscle back, or its another clam growing inside the old shell...

[Fishieness]

yes, a sump wil definatly make things look cleaner. you can take everythign out of your current tank. even powerheads if you have enough flow running through your sump. all your flow can be determined by a few little nozzles comeing into the tank from the return pump from the sump. and the heater can go in there as well
as far as the lighting, if you are doing a FO, no special lighting is needed. however, i havae seen a lot of people with the money have FO setupes with PC, t5, or even MH lighting because it looks so much better in the tank and even on the fish than normal output (NO) lighting. even like 2 t5 HOs would be nice. plus, you will probably find more in your live rock because some of the stuff found in there is photosynthetic.
but you will definatly find cool stuff. i have a pistol shrimp residing in a rock of zoas in my reef. i have even talked to people who have gotten small fish in lr.
if you have the money and want something that is goign to surprise you,then id suggest a reef. youll come home and notice that something is growing, your mushroom has split, ect. i love my reef much more than my 2 fowlrs (no offence to the fish in there of course...haha)

[TwanDizzle]

but isn't a reef a lot of trouble to take care of? and what do you mean by PC, t5 and mh lighting?? its not necessarily the money that i'm worried about, i just don't want to have to keep buying new stuff because everything keeps dying...

[Fishieness]

a reef would definatly be more matinence and energy to take care of. IMO, it is by far worth it, but i know some FO people may disagree.
t5HO (high output), metal halide (MH) and PC(power compacts) are all different types of lighting.

[TwanDizzle]

alright...thanks for the light info... wow, i guess you're the only one that wants to help me...hehehe.... ok, i've done some more researching, and here's some stuff i've found... liveaquaria.com has a (here i go again with "beginner" stuff lol)... a "beginner coral pack".. it comes with a button or colony polyp, yellow colony polyp, hairy mushroom, and a bullseye mushroom coral.. the site says that this pack doesn't need any special lighting or anything, and i take it that there isn't much special care needed, just some iodine with trace elements.. i think it does however mention that special lighting would help the corals seem more vibrant, but isn't required... i went into the separate species, and one said that it needs medium lighting; would my regular flourescent lights that i already have be sufficient? also, if the coral pack sounds good to you, then i think i have my tank plans finished.. and in order of addition (the order that i'm going to put the stuff in)..

South Pacific LiveSand - 80 lbs (according to liveaquaria's 2.5 pounds per gallon, would this be different depending on the liverock?)
Fiji Foundation Rock - 35 lbs (as you mentioned, this will go in before the sand, to prevent rockslides, etc.)
Fiji Premium Live Rock - 45 lbs

FISH :
1 yellowtail damsel
1 Ocellaris Clownfish
1 diamond watchman goby
1 yellow tang (i know you said its a bad idea, but i still want one)

Reef Cleaner Pack for 55 gallons (from liveaquaria, of course, hehe):
15 Trochus snails
11 super tongan nassarius snails
22 cerith snails
18 scarlet reef hermit crabs

Beginner Coral Pack :
1 button polyp or Colony Polyp
1 Yellow Colony Polyp
1 Hairy Mushroom Coral
1 Bullseye Mushroom coral or Green Flourescent mushroom coral

and there you have it! from the fish, to the coral, to the reef cleaner pack, i don't know in what order i want to add it... would there be any benefit of going in a specific order? ie, a fish being more agressive towards a new addition of another fish, or the corals not taking hold because of the cleaner crew, etc. etc.? i know some species of fish, you can have them together, but you need to add one before the other, for territorial reasons

[Fishieness]

alright...thanks for the light info... wow, i guess you're the only one that wants to help me...hehehe.... ok, i've done some more researching, and here's some stuff i've found... liveaquaria.com has a (here i go again with "beginner" stuff lol)... a "beginner coral pack".. it comes with a button or colony polyp, yellow colony polyp, hairy mushroom, and a bullseye mushroom coral.. the site says that this pack doesn't need any special lighting or anything, and i take it that there isn't much special care needed, just some iodine with trace elements.. i think it does however mention that special lighting would help the corals seem more vibrant, but isn't required... i went into the separate species, and one said that it needs medium lighting; would my regular flourescent lights that i already have be sufficient? also, if the coral pack sounds good to you, then i think i have my tank plans finished.. and in order of addition (the order that i'm going to put the stuff in)..

South Pacific LiveSand - 80 lbs (according to liveaquaria's 2.5 pounds per gallon, would this be different depending on the liverock?)
Fiji Foundation Rock - 35 lbs (as you mentioned, this will go in before the sand, to prevent rockslides, etc.)
Fiji Premium Live Rock - 45 lbs

FISH :
1 yellowtail damsel
1 Ocellaris Clownfish
1 diamond watchman goby
1 yellow tang (i know you said its a bad idea, but i still want one)

Reef Cleaner Pack for 55 gallons (from liveaquaria, of course, hehe):
15 Trochus snails
11 super tongan nassarius snails
22 cerith snails
18 scarlet reef hermit crabs

Beginner Coral Pack :
1 button polyp or Colony Polyp
1 Yellow Colony Polyp
1 Hairy Mushroom Coral
1 Bullseye Mushroom coral or Green Flourescent mushroom coral

and there you have it! from the fish, to the coral, to the reef cleaner pack, i don't know in what order i want to add it... would there be any benefit of going in a specific order? ie, a fish being more agressive towards a new addition of another fish, or the corals not taking hold because of the cleaner crew, etc. etc.? i know some species of fish, you can have them together, but you need to add one before the other, for territorial reasons
it is POSSIBLE that the corals there will survive under NO lighting. it may, it may not. bnut to tell you the truth, all the stuff i have seen under NO is so ugly and bland i would never put it in my tank. Then after a few weeks-months in my tank under better lighting, it is doing absolutly awesome. So besides special lighting and good waater quality, it doesnt need anything. they will take spot feedings of anything small and meaty. but they will get all the trace elements needed from the frequent water changes you will be doing.
also, are you goign to add those 45 pounds of figi after you put in any livestock? not a good idea. it seems like you are gaetting everything for live aquaria, in which case, that 2 day shipping will create a lot of die off and it will cause your tank to cycle once again, most likely killing a lot if not all of your live stock
then after a week of everything cycled, id add in the clean up crew
then some fish, do not add a yellow tang. they will quickly get too big for your tank even if you get a small one. and the yelow tail damsels are usualy very very aggressive towards other fish. even if you add them to the tank last they are a bully to fish much larger than themselves. The ocellaris and the goby will be find together. jsut make sure to wait a little while in between adding each fish to allow your tank to catch up to the bioload.
then you can start adding some corals after your tank has been up for a few months.

[TwanDizzle]

no no, i was going to get the basic set up done, as in the livesand and liverock... that is all going to be in one step... and then after its cycled, started adding the actual livestock.. the first step, maybe somethging like this: lay out the foundation rock, then the LS, and then the liverock... if i shouldn't have a tang and/or a yellowtail damsel, then what would you recommend? if possible, i'd like at least 5 different fish, depending on size and species, to add variety.. like, one of each species, is what i'm trying to say...

[TwanDizzle]

ok ok, a new list of fish!

Pajama cardinal (aka, spotted cardinal)
Ocellaris Clown
Green Chromis (apparently, its a schooling fish, so would 5 be a good number?)
Firefish
Royal Gramma
Yellow Watchman goby or diamond watchman goby
six lined wrasse

any conflict in this group?

[Fishieness]

all those shoudl be fine. to royal gramma, firefish, and the watchman goby might have trouble arguing over space. i would recomend adding the firefish 2nd and the gramma in last.
the chromis are a schooling fish and it is best to keep them in odd numbers (for some reason, they will usualy kill one until there is an odd number). so 5 would work, but even with the number of fish you have, 3 might be a little better :)
that is a large number of fish (it would be good to get rid of at least 2 or so), or at least i would recomend haveing a sump and very good skimmer.
as far as space issues, all the fish there dont get very large and for the most part arent goign to be swimming all around the tank (except for the chromis and six line. the clown too until it finds something to host). but bioload might cause problems, especialy if you are looking to keep more sensative corals. once again, a sump and good skimmer woudl do wonders. but that in combination with getting a few off the list would be nice. as you said before, 5 different fish is probably a good number.

[TwanDizzle]

alrighty then... i've got my list made out, and i think i'm finished!
Step 1:
live sand and live rock

Step 2:
Reef Package

Step 3: (probably adding each about a month in between each fish)
Ocellaris clown
Diamond watchman
Six Line Wrasse

Step 4:
Beginner Coral pack

Step 5:
3 Green Chromis (if i decide to get them, but for right now, its only a thought)

[TwanDizzle]

oh, and one last question to completely finish the system... what kind of lid/lights would you recommend? i mean down to the specifics... my tank is the standard 48 inches wide with the brace in the middle, so i'd need 2 separate lids... the ones i have now aren't quite 24 inches, but i don't know the specific size (i'm not at home right now)... but i assume its a standard size... also, what bulbs do i need to put in them? is there a good "all around" light to improve everything in the tank visually?

and next, the sump filter and skimmer... once again, i need specifics... good brand, what GPH should i be looking for?

[Fishieness]

for the lighting, i woudl get rid of the NO florecent and get a t least some PCs. if you have the initial money, i would go with t5s. they run cooler and the wattage is less with more PAR so you will eventualy save money in electricity. plus the bulbs cost less and you dont have to replace them as often. your corals will thank you and from their response, you will thank yourself.
personaly, i dont think you need a mechanical filter. if you are able to build a sump, more power to ya. you will save a heck of a lot of money. for a skimmer, if you are just doing soft corals and a few fish, a aqua C urchin pro will work fine.
you are probably going to want about 7-800 gph going through your sump. keep in mind also while buying a pump for it that youa re goign to loose a lot of the water output with verticle pressure and fittings.
check this out:
http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php


idealy, you are goign to want to design your setup (sump, plumbing, ect) before you pick a return pump

for a filter, a phosban reactor woudl be nice. but it isnt necessary. just the sump, lots of live rock, the protein skimmer, water changes, and thworing in a media bag with some activated carbon will do fine.