The ABS issue

[Wippit Guud]

Man... a lot of good information gone, again... anyways, did some digging on the internet... here's a few things available to purchase, that use water, that are made of ABS:

http://www.campingworld.com/browse/products/index.cfm?prodID=1458

This is an ABS water entry port for RV's.

http://www.espressoparts.com/index.php/categories/14/146

Pipes for an expresso machine. So this even cludes the heat issues

http://www.chemicals-technology.com/contractors/safety/haws
http://www.nlsanimalhealth.com/store/eyewash.shtm

Here's big kicker #1... those are two sites that sell ABS eyewash stations. For those of you unfamiliar with them, they're used to clean chemicals that get into your eyes somehow. I don't think they'd use a material that leeches poison in a medical device.

http://doitbest.com/shop/dept.asp?paging_code=10&dept_id=1406

And here's big kicker #2... these are pond liners. Those big black liners you see everywhere. I'm sure several people here have ponds with these liners and have had fish in them for long periods of time, so any effect would be noticable.

I'm not trying to start arguements, just posting info.

[slipknottin]

your not going to delete this, right? :rolleyes:

[Wippit Guud]

Wait... you can delete stuff?

No, this post is to stay, I won't delete it even if 20 people show up and start yelling at me.

[kveeti]

Thanks Wippit Guud.

Reposting my link from the Plastic Pipe and Fitting Association:
http://www.ppfahome.org/abs/index.html

Also a link at the top for PVC info.

And here's at least one place that sells aquarium cleaning products made of ABS:

http://www.angliaaquatics.com/acatalog/Anglia_aquatics_Cleaning_Accessories__111.html


P.S. Oh, and, do you have his book - "Daily Affirmations by Stuart Smalley"? It's hilarious.

[wetmanNY]

"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!"

--Homer Simpson

[slipknottin]

how about pictures?


http://www.aquadirect.com/catalog/pumps/images/mag.jpg
thats a mag-drive pump made by Danner... by far the most common submersible pump in aquarium applications.





im expecting emails from a bunch of aquarium product makers who i suspect use ABS in their products.

[JamisonBWolsh]

The reason I deleted it was someone said I could get sued for what I said about companies. So im not going to say anything about any of those links. You can provide all the links you in fact.

I just got back from the Hardware store (A major store- wont name it co I cant get sued), but they have a sign located where they sell the abs piping warning of chemicals, blah blah blah, dont use it for drinking water..blah blah blah...Pretty much a sign saying that if you use the abs for drinking water, you cant sue them. What is interesting, it states a NEW california Law regulating this type of Plastic.

Even if you look at the black plastic, you can 100 percent tell the difference between the outside and inside of the pipe (alot shinnier, smoother to touch, and softer). You can tell something was added to it. You can show me all the links you want, but I saw with My own eyes and read the warnings posted. there is NO WAY in -=-- that I will add that in my tank. Stop by your hardware store and find out yourself.

No names given..so no lawsuits.

[slipknottin]

the inside is not coated.... its polished.

what chemicals did it say were in ABS?

There are already numerous things for aquariums made of ABS. Are all these companies doing something wrong? You might want to e-mail them all and explain how toxic it is. Send some to all the people that are using ABS in the food industry too. None of them are aware of how dangerous ABS is...

look at those tables of how toxic ABS is... its rated the same as PVC... thats awful.

[slipknottin]

First response ive recieved


Yes, we
use ABS
for our overflow boxes. Also on our bowfront and corner aquariums, we
use
ABS for our caps, some of the frame, and part of the stand.

Regards,

SARAH RANSTROM
Sarah Ranstrom
Customer Service Representative
Oceanic Systems Inc.


i sent a reply asking if they had any concerns with it leeching any "nasties" into the water. No reply yet.

[Wippit Guud]

Who said you could get sued by naming companies? Watch this...
MICROSOFT SUCKS!

Anyways, if they make pond liners out of this stuff, and some people here have had ponds for quite a while with no ill effects, I'd say there's no danger to fish. If they use it for medical uses, I can't see it being poisonous at all.

[ArkyLady]

Originally posted by Wippit Guud
Who said you could get sued by naming companies? Watch this...
MICROSOFT SUCKS!

haha you're such a rebel :D

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh
The reason I deleted it was someone said I could get sued for what I said about companies. So im not going to say anything about any of those links.


you deleted an entire other thread also.

you could have deleted just that last post where you accoused all these companies of lying...

[JamisonBWolsh]

Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene (ABS) is used as a hard plastic in many applications like pipes, car bumpers and toys (hard building blocks). ABS uses a number of hazardous chemicals. These include butadiene and styrene (see above) and acrylonitrile. Acrylonitrile is highly toxic and readily absorbed by humans by inhalation and directly through the skin. Both the liquid and its vapor are highly toxic. Acrylonitrile is classified as a probable human carcinogen as are styrene and butadiene.

http://archive.greenpeace.org/~toxics/html/content/pvc5.html

[JamisonBWolsh]

Im not talking about normal ABS plastics... we are talking about ABS SEWEGE Pipes.... there is a difference... the pipes are coated with a funguscide

[Richer]

Note, its toxic as a liquid or as vapor. Last time I looked, ABS was solid.

This is kind of like this example... everyday salt is made up of two elements. Sodium, and chloride. If you break salt apart (via electricity) the chlorine gas can be extremely dangerous. So how come we consume salt on a daily basis if it has the potential to be dangerous? Sodium is also a component of sodium hydroxide. This stuff is also very dangerous... (I believe its a large component of Drain-O).

-Richer

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by JamisonBWolsh
Im not talking about normal ABS plastics... we are talking about ABS SEWEGE Pipes.... there is a difference... the pipes are coated with a funguscide

where are you getting this from? you keep saying it but you can provide no evidence to support it.

last thread you said "you cant use ABS as sewage pipe, its against the law"

ive done numerous searches and the result is pretty clear, ABS tubing is NOT coated in any type of fugicide.

If it was, it would state on the pipe itself, Per govt regulations.

[Dale W.]

Now this more like a debate.

No name calling or any of that stuff. Just people posting links and trying to prove thier side of the story. Keep it clean and positive and these debates can really be of some value.

Thanks

BTW, you can mention companies but you should not smear thier image as it could be taken as slander. Its a fine line. Ask Tom G about this as he has had some insights to this.

[JamisonBWolsh]

I never said that. I said ABS sewege pipe is not used for drinking water..that is against the law.

[slipknottin]

from the greenpeace website

http://a520.g.akamai.net/7/520/1533/7d6565817aef7a/www.greenpeace.org/~toxics/images/content/looming55.gif


The pyramid of plastics is a ranking of plastics according to their hazardous characteristics. PVC, the most
problematic plastic, is at the top of the pyramid


what do we use PVC for again? potable water?

[slipknottin]

any why is it against the law?

ive explained this numerous times already.

ABS is not made for pressure applications. your tap water is under alot of pressure (70psi) and that is why ABS pipe is not rated for potable water.

other ABS products are rated for potable water.

[JamisonBWolsh]

After VERY in-depth RESEARCH, I realize that the hardware store and its "warning sign" as well as MANY poeples opinions stating that ABS can be toxic, I was not able to find ONE article that relates that abs pipes is toxic.

http://www.ia.nrcs.usda.gov/fotg/section4/pstands/516std.pdf

a law stating that it can be used for drinkinng. Several other scientific articles stating the same. BUT we are not talking about ABS piping. We are talking about ABS SEWEGE piping that is sold in the hardware stores. Its the SEWEGE pipes that leech toxins..and Im still looking...

[JamisonBWolsh]

Originally posted by Wippit Guud
Who said you could get sued by naming companies? Watch this...
MICROSOFT SUCKS!

.

You should be carefull what you say. You can be sued for slander. PetSwarehouse sued a few people when those people said the same thing about that business.

[Wippit Guud]

Wouldn't hold up in court.... stating an opinion on a message board with a fake name wouldn't carry much weight in a court. I could say "I hate Burger King fries" and it works the same as "Windows XP is a piece of crap"

[JamisonBWolsh]

well someone did do the samething with PetSwarehouse and the poeple on that thread got sued. BTW, your IP address is logged with your screenname. There are ways to track that down easily. Slander is Real. Check it out with Petswarehouse. Since those companies are LARGE, they dont really care and plus it will not ruin their name. You say the samething about a mom and pop store or internet website..your just looking to get sued.

[online2]

Wow:eek: This 3rd thread on this subject, that why I come to this site for all good reading.


And this corner we have "good abs" and in the other corner we have "bad abs"......lets get ready to rumble!:D

[vfrex]

I thought the petswarehouse trial was still going on.

[JamisonBWolsh]

The guy who owns petswarehouse keeps adding names and various other factors. Some of the poeple involved settled for a cash settlement to be paid to the guy...

an article of him suing google:
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/02/10/03/1239211.shtml?tid=153

here is the whole deal:
http://www.thedefensefund.org/


a really interesting case.. I never been to his website, so dont know about that. Why is he doing this? for the money. suing google for 15,000,000.00 just because some people were discussing his business. I tell you... check the 2nd link for more info.

[firetank]

havent we digressed somewhat.....

:rolleyes:

[JeffP]

That's it. Tomorrow I'm going to talk to one of the water supply engineers where I work. He's probably not as qualified as the plumbing store person but he's a professional engineer in three states.:rolleyes:

[ArkyLady]

If Microsoft decided to start suing people for saying they suck, that would be one LONG list :)

JamisonBWolsh, you mentioned in the other thread some article or something on the EPA website about the dangers of ABS pipe. I'd like to read that article if you would post the link please. I haven't been able to find it searching their website yet. Thanks!

[morleyz]

Jameson - First of all, you've used the argument several times that because ABS was produced with toxic chemicals, it must be toxic. That's simply not true...everyone who has the least bit of chemistry knowledge realizes that plastics do not carry the toxicity of the polymers and chemicals used to make them. Usually not even when reacted with chemically or burned.

Additionally, the reason why you can't find any proof that ABS is coated with toxic chemicals is because it isn't. As I said last night, look at it from a logical point of view. If it was SO important to coat the inside of a drain/sewer pipe with an anti-fungal agent, don't you think that it would be all used up within the first 6 months? I don't recall having to inject fungicide into my piping. I can't think of any chemical that would be used up in a reaction that can last forever...what happens when it runs out??? Catastrophic failure??

Another great resource is:

http://www.nsf.org

Read through the standards that have to be met for toxicity and you'll notice that all plastic pipe used for water (whether waste water or not) must meet NSF/ANSI standard 14.

NSF International developed Standard 14 - Plastics Piping System Components and Related Materials - which covers materials and products used in plumbing/circulation systems. It establishes minimum physical, performance, health effects, quality assurance, marking, and record keeping requirements for plastic piping components and related materials...
When you read on you'll see that all the plastic piping is held to that standard to receive NSF markings. The difference between NSF-pw and NSF-dw or NSF-sewer is strength and flexibility.



Richer - ABS is not toxic as a vapor as it has no vapor form...it goes from liquid directly to products of combusion, which are relatively harmless. See:

http://www.plasticsgroup.com/professor_polymer/msds_sheets/polifil_rp_abs/

Ahh...it's nice to put some of that down without it getting deleted.

[Wippit Guud]

Originally posted by morleyz

Richer - ABS is not toxic as a vapor as it has no vapor form...it goes from liquid directly to products of combusion, which are relatively harmless.

However, it is quite toxic when ignited, some buildings even ban the use of ABS. That may be the vapor form that is commonly described.

Ironically, PVC is even more toxic when on fire.

[JeffP]

Everything is "toxic" when ignited. Combustion byproducts are inherently dangerous. The MSDS sheet for every combustible substance will have the same warning. However, plastics in general do release some particularly nasty byproducts.

Actually, almost all fire is the combustion of flammable gases although I am not sure if this applies to combustible metals and other special situations. Solid and liquid materials (wood, plastic, gasoline etc.) are heated until a vapor is formed and it is the resulting vapor that burns. When heated, plastics will begin to release vapors that are both toxic and combustible. The temperature at which various materials begin this process is inherent to each specific material. In the context of aquarium piping, if ABS is heated to a point where it begins to release toxic and combustible gases then you most likely will be "on route" to having much bigger problems.

[morleyz]

Jeff, although most combustion takes place as you said, it is important to note that many solids cannot exist in gaseous form. Such as wood, or ABS, while heating them to the combustion temperature produces a gas which is ignited, you cannot achieve that gas without ignition. I guess in my mind that makes a difference.

[JeffP]

Heat is necessary to degrade the solid or evaporate the liquid. Initially the heat has to come from an "outside" source. It could be a match, or electricity in an overloaded circuit, etc. The material (wood, plastic, or otherwise) actually begins to break down and release various gases characteristic to the material. These gases when mixed with air and sufficient heat, then produce fire. At this point, the resulting fire produces sufficient heat on its own to keep the process continuing. Components of the solid or liquid that could not be turned into a gas remain as ash or residue.

You are correct in stating that solids cannot exist in the gaseous form...only certain decomposition byproducts. However, the gaseous byproducts must exist before ignition/fire can occur.

Better yet, how about we include the formation of combustible gaseous byproducts as part of the ignition process. We're both right:D

I forgot what this had to do with fish health:D ?

[Wippit Guud]

I guess in trying to prove if ABS is poisonous to fish, we're discussing hwo to make ABS poisonous, period.

[ewok]

slip: abs is used for most irrigation systems, high volume and i would think high pressure. not to mention the stuff getting irrigated (besides grass) is generally consumed by humans.

richer: sodium hydroxide or caustic soda is a nasty little chemical we used in water treatment at a place i used to work. it is also used for drain cleaners and at full strength will cause a nasty chemical "burn" very quickly. it's been awhile but i am pretty sure it was used to neutralize acids as i'm pretty positive it is highly alkaline (up around ph14).

which brings us back to the plastics arguement, the best usage for plastic isn't extremely high or low temperature, but mostly for acids and degradation. plastic degrades alot less than most metals like say your copper water supply piping. plastic will last d@mn near forever as long as it isn't broken or exposed to extreme temps, and being that it doesn't degrade much i would suspect it leeches very little, even under exposure to acids like i had at the incinerator.

if you're worried that much about leeching you might want to read into the effects of copper, steel, lead and tin and a few other elements that are used in common house piping and fresh water supply sources. that pretty green blast of water you get from an unused spigot would worry me much more than something i can't even see.

[karfixer]

So, it is safe to say that plunging burning ABS into my fish tanks is a bad idea :rolleyes:

[JamisonBWolsh]

We already debated the ABS issue to death. I just found out that one major hardware store near me was not just selling the ABS tube. They were selling it with a CELLULAR COATING inside the pipe. This is TOXIC. So if you buy the abs pipe, make sure it doesnt have this coating.

[slipknottin]

and it stated right on the pipe or on a sign next to it that it had the coating, correct? (it is a federal law)

[JamisonBWolsh]

Actually..It didnt...if you look closely at the pipe..it says it on the pipe..Not in the advertising

[JamisonBWolsh]

That was the shinning coating I told you about a few weeks ago. I had to talk to the magager of that store, the workers knew nothing about the coating..... SO BE CAREFULL the ABS pipe you buy is not COATED!

[slipknottin]

most ABS pipe has a shiny interior. Its usually polished.

I said they had to print it on the pipe OR on a sign next to it. It doesnt need to be advertised, but it needs to be printed on the pipe.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Just be carefull there isnt a cellular coating, which, in this case, there was. If I added it to my tank..well...lets just say my tank will be full of dead fish...

[morleyz]

What is a cellular coating? What does it do?