55 gallon and alot of cichlids?

[dynasty187]

Ok so I just got a new 55 gallon tank and I'm leaning towards the Cichlids.

I've heard the best thing to do in order to minimize aggression is to crowd the tank? I would like as many fish as possible around the 5-6" mark.
I've read alot about the fish pairing up and breeding, would it be best to get all females of say convicts or any other type?

I've got a rena filstar xp3, so filtration is not a problem.

thanks.

[jm1212]

you could have a group of 5 angels if you want a species tank.

[dynasty187]

Angels are cool but they are not my top choice.

[liv2padl]

I've heard the best thing to do in order to minimize aggression is to crowd the tank you've heard wrong. crowding a tank results in severe stress syndrome. fish under sstress do not exhibit proper color, do not develop proper fin form, do not exhibit proper metabolic development, do not exhibit normal behaviour, do not develop proper musculature, do not develop properly functioning organ systems and as a result, slowly lose their inherant resistance to disease. this results in a significantly shortened lifespan and along the way, lots of diseases for which the poorly conditioned fish is a good target. additionally, in an effort to establish territory in a tank which is too small for the number of fish you've got, the alpha male will harrass and kill the underdog(s).

if you want to keep cichlids, decide on which type of cichlids you want ... Africans? New World? then we can more specifically help you in terms of numbers.

[dynasty187]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I like convicts, Jacks, green terrors, Firemouths, Jurupari, Salvini.

[ChilDawg]

A single GT would be okay in that tank, as would a single Jack.

[liv2padl]

Geophagus jurapari grows to ten inches and does best in groups ... your tank isn't large enough for such a group.

Nandopsis (Crytoheros) octofasciatum - the Jack Dempsey, grows to ten inches and 'can' do well in the company of firemouth cichlids. this fish has 'personality' however, and some can be hard on tankmates. unfortunately there's no way to know in advance which way your dempsey may decide to go, so you need to be prepared to remove him should he prove too pugnacious. if it were me, i wouldn't chance it.

Archocentrus nigrofasciatus - convict cichlid, grows to 5-6 inches. this is a very scrappy little fish when spawning and a breeding pair will dominate a territory of 2 square feet at a minimum. this makes keeping a "pair" in a tank with other fish difficult (for the other fish) in a tank of less than 4 feet. if you're looking to set up a "community" cichlid tank, sticking to a single convict would make life easier for your fish.

other cichlids i can highly recommend for your tank size include:

Cryptoheros myrnae
Cryptoheros nanoluteus
Cryptoheros sajica
Cryptoheros spilurus
Cryptoheros sp. ‘Honduran redpoint’

any of these can be kept in "pairs" with other fish and in doing so, you'll get to experience the full breeding behaviour of some truly beautiful fish.

[pugwash]

From your favourite list, you could easily have a pair of FM's with swordtails swimming around (potentially 2 pairs would fit in the tank, but you'd have to aquascape accordingly blocking lines of sight) and a small pleco or something.

A pair of Salvini's is possible in this tank, only if the tank is dedicated to them solely - they have 2 teeth that rip apart even larger cichlids, let alone anything smaller. They are savage to tankmates when breeding, but have beautiful breeding colours.

Liv2padl's suggestions are good. I'm currently looking for Cryptoheros sp. ‘Honduran redpoint’, as these are very nice imo with relatively good behaviour (compared to convict's which they're closely related too) and quite rare in the UK still, but easier to get hold of in the US.

[Cylon]

I don't have africans. But I heard some where that you can stock heavyker with them then North & South American Cichlids. Plus they are smaller fish.

Maybe this is what dynasty187 heard about overstocking?.

So if you want more fish I would guess your thinking of Africans.

[liv2padl]

I heard somewhere that you can stock heavyer with them then North & South American Cichlids. in my opinion, people who say that the way to control aggression just don't understand the biology of African Mbuna.

african Mbuna should be maintained in tanks with a LOT of rockwork which provides a cave for each female at a minimum and other caves for male territory. insufficient territorial boundaries result in stress. people will say that Mbuna exist in compact groups of many hundreds of fish crowded onto a rocky area in the wild. true ... but the very important difference is that in that compact space there are thousands of caves to support the number of fish present. those fish that cannot be supported both by nutrition availability and territory can leave to begin a new colony elsewhere. in the confines of your glass box, the fish cannot leave. result ... stress. stress leads to a shortened lifespan and even death.

[tbarblover]

I beg to differ on your facts/opinions.......I have a 46 gallon bowfront which houses around 12 african cichlids with light rockwork with the majority of the fish measuring 4-5 inches......they all have brilliant coloration and all seem to be happy in the tank........I have also accidentally hatched some fry in the tank two of which are now around 2 inches.......I also have a 55 gallon south american tank which houses 2 convicts, 1 gold severum, 1 green terror, 1 geophagus, 2 yellow convicts, 1 bristlenose pleco, 4 cory cats, and 2 bolivian rams all of which have excellant coloration...........the tank has plenty of cover for the fish and one of the convicts and the gold severum are starting a family........I have kept the african tank for about three years and not having a fish die in over a year and a half.......my south american has been going for about 8 months and only recently did i have a firemouth die due to unknown causes........ Do i want a bigger tank you ask? Of course, but until I buy my house later this year, it's not feasible. Do I need a bigger tank? Probably, although IMO as long as my fish are healthy and not killing each other they're fine........ I believe the key is breaking up the territories enough to ease the fighting that may occur and to overfilter.......my tanks dont appear to be overcrowded and when they do I will accommodate as I see fit...... In my experience, the more territory you give to the fish the more aggressive they become when another fish enters their territory so simply break up the territories and add more fish to compensate.........it may not be the "right" thing to do by some standards, but it works for me and anyone who has ever seen my tanks will tell you that they are beautiful.........

[monkey_toes]

Wow. You've got 50 inches of South American cichlid crammed into a 55g, plus other tankmates? That's just mean. Although it may be working for you, no matter what you say it's not healthy for the fish. Please don't advise people that they can do this. It's inhumane, and the long-term survival outlook of that volume of fish in that volume of water is poor, regardless of whether or not the species in question are territorial.

BTW, how about posting a few pics of these "beautiful" tanks?

[dynasty187]

If I managed to get females only, would that make them less aggressive?

[liv2padl]

I have kept the african tank for about three years and not having a fish die in over a year and a half that's not particularly noteworthy. African cichlids have an average life span of 6-10 years, while some species may live over 15 years! c'mon back when you've achieved that kind of success.


my south american has been going for about 8 months and only recently did i have a firemouth die due to unknown causes again, these cichlids can live for upwards of 12 years. having one die of "unknown causes" and then stating that cramming that many fish into such small quarters is success, doesn't make your point very well.

[tbarblover]

not to be too offensive but i did state that when then needs arise for my fish to be put into a larger tank, i will accommodate as needed....... that is basically the message i was trying to get across and that is to do what you want now but to be aware when the time comes to be ready to change........ aside from all that, i don't view fish the same as i view my dog or cat........when a fish passes i scoop him out and flush him as opposed to my dog who i would mourn....... i view my fish as "living furniture" if you will..... i do however enjoy my fish and have my favorites, but its not a catastophic loss if one happens to pass......

[tbarblover]

might be a little blurry

[pugwash]

If I managed to get females only, would that make them less aggressive?

It depends. With respect to CA cichlids, most people tend to go for male only tanks due to availabilty - there tend to be a lot more males in fish shops than females. This way you get the fish without the breeding aggression.

I'm not sure on African's though, as they seem to me to be mostly monomorphic (with exceptions of course) but I have seen male only tanks of these with more species in than you'd get using CA/SA cichlids.

In a nutshell, African's have more vibrant colours, whilst CA/SA cichlids are behaviourially more interesting.


Oh, and please consider adult sizes when stocking a tank, not just their current size, as this will lead to less problms down the road.

[liv2padl]

tbarblover ...

i think the most important point to be made here is that if something is working for YOU, that's certainly a good thing. but generally, there are minimum standards that beginners should adhere to in order to achieve best results. advising the general population of a forum that overstocking is fine will result in most beginners taking that as the gospel and ending up with dead fish.

rather than giving them advice that rarely works out well, we should be telling them how to keep fish in a manner that almost always works out best. that way, they'll have a successful beginning experience and stay with the hobby rather than getting disgusted at the start and giving up. surely the beginning is the toughest part.

i'd suggest that the majority of hobbyists out there, start out with the best of intentions ... "oh, i know that fish will be too big for my 10 gallon tank, but i'll get a bigger tank when he needs it". unfortunately, that bigger tank never seems to happen and those same hobbyists are back here asking what caused this or that disease or why their fish died.

many hobbyists, myself included, don't necessarily feel the same emotion for a fish as they do for their cats and dogs ... but i absolutely feel that if you're going to keep a fish in a glass box, it becomes your responsibility to maintain that fish in the best possible manner. they're living things afterall and shouldn't be treated as 'disposable' furniture.

what do you think?

[mostlycichlids]

I think you should take liv2padl's advise IMO he has some of the best advise to give especially when it comes to cichlids.

Tbarblover the SA/CA tank is way over crowded that would be my main focus to fix that situation first Ill bet when all those fish become fully mature you will have major problems with fighting due to territory issues and the rams are going to be lunch meat. on the other hand nice pictures. Oh and like liv2padl said fish should not be treated as disposable furniture they are living breathing creatures. You wouldnt buy a large bread dog and keep him locked up in a small one bed room apt and never let it out or would you? Same with fish I think there should be stricter penalties for fish neglect as it is so overlooked. just my 2cents.........

[mostlycichlids]

not to be too offensive but i did state that when then needs arise for my fish to be put into a larger tank, i will accommodate as needed....... that is basically the message i was trying to get across and that is to do what you want now but to be aware when the time comes to be ready to change........ aside from all that, i don't view fish the same as i view my dog or cat........when a fish passes i scoop him out and flush him as opposed to my dog who i would mourn....... i view my fish as "living furniture" if you will..... i do however enjoy my fish and have my favorites, but its not a catastophic loss if one happens to pass......

I would like to see you flush a 12 inch green terror or an 8 inch serevum!

[F1shkeeper]

so in your guys opnion, what is the max amount of Mbuna's you would keep inside of a 55g? as you can see i have 4 and they are fairly agressive to each other, but not so much i would say it is compromising thier health at all.

[dynasty187]

Would it be ok to have two Jacks, if I were to get them as youngins?

or 1 jack and 1 green terror?

[mostlycichlids]

Geophagus jurapari grows to ten inches and does best in groups ... your tank isn't large enough for such a group.

Nandopsis (Crytoheros) octofasciatum - the Jack Dempsey, grows to ten inches and 'can' do well in the company of firemouth cichlids. this fish has 'personality' however, and some can be hard on tankmates. unfortunately there's no way to know in advance which way your dempsey may decide to go, so you need to be prepared to remove him should he prove too pugnacious. if it were me, i wouldn't chance it.

Archocentrus nigrofasciatus - convict cichlid, grows to 5-6 inches. this is a very scrappy little fish when spawning and a breeding pair will dominate a territory of 2 square feet at a minimum. this makes keeping a "pair" in a tank with other fish difficult (for the other fish) in a tank of less than 4 feet. if you're looking to set up a "community" cichlid tank, sticking to a single convict would make life easier for your fish.

other cichlids i can highly recommend for your tank size include:

Cryptoheros myrnae
Cryptoheros nanoluteus
Cryptoheros sajica
Cryptoheros spilurus
Cryptoheros sp. ‘Honduran redpoint’

any of these can be kept in "pairs" with other fish and in doing so, you'll get to experience the full breeding behaviour of some truly beautiful fish.

liv2padl already answered this...

[mostlycichlids]

so in your guys opnion, what is the max amount of Mbuna's you would keep inside of a 55g? as you can see i have 4 and they are fairly agressive to each other, but not so much i would say it is compromising thier health at all.

you need to start a new thread.....

[tbarblover]

i didn't mean to offend you guys nor did i say they were "disposable furniture" but i did say that they are "living furniture"....... dynasty i didn't mean to confuse you and for that i apologize........ liv2padl i agree with what you say when you say that it is our responsibility to give the best care possible which is why i strive to make the aquarium as close to their natural environment as possible........ is it not fair to say that if my fish are breeding than i must be doing something right or am i wrong?........ obviously i wouldnt flush a full grown green terror or severum down the toilet because they would be too big........ no my 55 is not overcrowded seeing that the largest fish in there would be the gt who is only about 3 inches and the rest measuring around two inches........plans are in the works for a 220 gallon which should be set up and running by may-june.......liv2padl i do respect your input and actually find myself reading a lot of your posts i simply disagree at times with certain things......is it correct that the gt reaches 8 inches and the severum reaches 12 as opposed to 12 and 8 respectively? now that ive hopefully cleared the controversy up a little lets give dynasty the advice that they were asking for.......

[liv2padl]

i simply disagree at times with certain things disagreement is not necessarily a bad thing ... it leads to discussion which is a good thing. and hey, i'm not right all the time ... in fact, i remember i was wrong once on august 24th 1987. ;)

[number1sixerfan]

No offense to anyone, just want to post some thoughts based off of research and experience.

It is a fact that crowding mbuna can and usually will ease aggression.
The crowding of mbuna makes it hard for the dominant and aggressive fish to find and pick off the weaker fish. In most tanks that house aggressive mbuna and are not "overstocked", you will find that the weaker fish are confined to hiding and/or staying in one area of the tank.(usually a lot smaller than the dominant males') This is more stressful than if the same, weaker fish, were in an overcrowded tank.

Even if there are enough hiding places, a fish can be stressed. I have a 72g bowfront tank that houses P.Demasoni and Labdichromis C. The demasoni will kill each other one by one if there are less than 10 of them. Therefore I have 13 Demasoni and 6 Labs all at aroun 1.5in-2in. They all swim out in the open and only hide when startled or sleeping.

One thing people do not talk about when talking about overcrowding is that you need overfiltration. At least 2x the amount rated for your aquarium because of the access waste. Poor water quality is the biggest cause of poor coloration, stress, and death. I have a fluval 405 and an XP3 that takes care of the tank.

Lastly, to those who say overcrowding is just "mean", consider this. Think about the lightly stocked mbuna tank that has plenty of rocks/caves, and the dominant mbuna roams the tank while the weaker fish is limited to staying in the caves or being chased around all the time. That is mean IMHO. (however, there are some of the more peaceful species that can be housed with a light stock with no problems).

[YoFishboy]

and hey, i'm not right all the time ... in fact, i remember i was wrong once on august 24th 1987. ;)


You are mistaken...it was August 23.....that makes 2 mistakes...crap.....you are on the slippery slope now!

[number1sixerfan]

Here are some pics of the tank if anyone is curious. Comments welcome. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/number1sixerfan/DSC00881.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/number1sixerfan/DSC00877.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/number1sixerfan/DSC00879.jpg

[YoFishboy]

Hey Number1! I want your texas holy rock! nice!

[liv2padl]

You are mistaken...it was August 23 :D

[monkey_toes]

220 gallons? Now we're talking …

[dynasty187]

Well I just got back from my LFS (Big Al's) and I'm pretty sure I'll end up with: red top zebras, saulosi, Calvus and rubescens.

The guy I talked to said for the 55 two pairs of six will be good as long as there is plent of knooks and crannys.

Let me know what you think.

[tbarblover]

yup.....i have the tank but i am currently looking into building it into a wall or building the stand myself...... i saw the tank at a store and loved the shape/size and bought it on a whim(i have a habit of that)........by the way, nice tank number1.......

[dynasty187]

I might even just get all Calvus/Compressiceps in however many different colours they have.

They are my favourite cichlids by far.

[jessicar613]

I might even just get all Calvus/Compressiceps in however many different colours they have.

They are my favourite cichlids by far.

They look awesome. :)

[dynasty187]

They look awesome. :)

ahaha I know, I just saw and replied to your thread. Did you end up getting some?

[liv2padl]

The guy I talked to said for the 55 two pairs of six African Malawi cichlids are not "pair formers" ... they are polygamous. this means that you need to maintain them as a group of ONE male + at least THREE females. fewer females and they will get harrassed to death by the male.

[jessicar613]

ahaha I know, I just saw and replied to your thread. Did you end up getting some?

No... lol... I have the hardest time making up my mind! I still love them. I replied on that thread.

[number1sixerfan]

African Malawi cichlids are not "pair formers" ... they are polygamous. this means that you need to maintain them as a group of ONE male + at least THREE females. fewer females and they will get harrassed to death by the male.

I think he might mean 2 species of 6 each. I'm not sure. That would work as long as there are plenty of hiding places.

Another thing is usually cichlids are bought as juvies in hopes to grow up together and therefore be less aggressive towards each other. If you do buy juvies it will be almost impossible to sex them. Therefore you may want to get maybe 8 or so of each species and then take the extras back to the lfs once you sex them.

Good Luck!

And thanks everyone for the compliments on my tank. it is a lot of fun to watch.

[johnlarson66]

:OT:

Just a quick Hi-jack of this thread.

Is that texas holey rock glued or just placed. I want to do that in my tank (but with black sand). btw, your tank looks great.

Thanks

(end of hi-jack)

[hoghunter]

I too have found that overcrowding eases aggression. It's just more work on the part of the fishkeeper. 15 or so juvenile cichlids will work fine in a 55g as long as you are prepared to move them to a 90g or so in 4 - 6 months and a 250 - 300g (depending on species) after a year or so. More filtration than normal is definately required as are frequent water changes and tests for toxins. Also in my experience single specimens work better for South and Central Americans than groups. And I do believe that aquiring the fish as juvies and growing them up together makes them more tolerant of each other. But like others have said here a lot of people buy a handful of cichlids for their 29g and just never find the time or money to get that larger aquarium. As a result the fish suffer. I'm kinda lucky (I guess) because I also raise Anacondas and large Crocodilians so I have the facilities to deal with large amounts of filtered water.

[dynasty187]

Thanks for the replies, I plan on getting Calvus, yellow lab, leptosoma, bumblebee and either some peacocks or zebras. But mostly Calvus, like black, white and yellow.

Let me know what you think.

[grannylvsfish]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I like convicts, Jacks, green terrors, Firemouths, Jurupari, Salvini.

convicts are fun and breed like mad! I started a 29 gallon some years ago and got 2 convicts. I did not know if they were male or felame, after a few months wow my tank exploded with babies. I had to set up another tank for all the babies. I have a fire mouth now, he is the life of the tank. he eats out of my hand ( as well as all my fish) and follows me from all sides. he is a charmer :)

[number1sixerfan]

:OT:

Just a quick Hi-jack of this thread.

Is that texas holey rock glued or just placed. I want to do that in my tank (but with black sand). btw, your tank looks great.

Thanks

(end of hi-jack)

Thanks. The texas holey rock is not glued, just placed. It makes cleaning a lot easier.

[dynasty187]

Alright just got back from the LFS and heres what I got. All juveniles.

3 red top
3 jewel
3 aurora pomba
3 black calvus
3 yellow lab
3 red peackcock

[dynasty187]

*edit ^peacock

[pugwash]

Any pics? As I had a tankfull of Labs ages ago when African's just came available, before I came back to the hobby and went into CA's. There seem to be soo many different African species available now, you're spoilt for choice.

[dynasty187]

Naw I dont have any pics, I'll work on em though cuz I think everyone would really like this tank. It's an all natural looking habitat with nice colouration in the fish.

[eyeman]

In general it is not advisable to stock Malawi and Tanganyikan fish together. With the exception of Tropheus sp. 'Tang' fish do not do better while overstocked. Most tangs are VERY aggressive and territorial. The altolamps are milder than most.

The calvus will eat all fry that may be born in your tank. If you're not concerened about that then things will probably be OK.

[dynasty187]

I've been watching them closely for the past couple days and they are all fine, no torn fins or even simple chasing of another fish. All the fish I have are mild or less in aggression and they have all been introduced as juveniles. So that should limit if not eliminate aggression as they grow.