Aces! Yet Another "I'm New and Unsure" Thread

[shaggyspeedy]

Well, I finally decided to dive head first into Aquaria, something I've wanted to do since I was a child. Now while I read that the bigger you can go, the better, my checkbook figured otherwise, so I just went with a 10 gallon. Got the Gravel, Power Filter, some fake plants (the live plants will come later when I feel more comfortable), heater, etc. etc. etc. I set it all up, filled it with water, added the conditioner, and let it sit. That was Sunday night.

The next night, I read literature like a fiend. Normal Cycling, Fishless Cycling, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH levels, everything I could get my hands on. I picked up an Ammonia testing kit, though I hadn't decided if I wanted to go fishless or not.

After weighing the pros and cons, I gave in to the pressure from my fiancee, and we'll do the normal cycling.

So Monday Night, I test the Ammonia levels for giggles, and read an 0.5. Isn't bad, but then again, the water is only a day old.

Last night, my fiancee went out and bought a pH test (you know, the deluxe one that included the pH Down and the pH Up). So we tested for ammonia, another 0.5. Again, not good, but no biggie.

The real problem came on the pH test. The test only reads 6.0 - 7.6. We pinned it at 7.6. So my fiancee added some pH down. A couple of hours later, we test again. Again, it shoots staight to 7.6. Added more pH Down.

This morning, I tested for pH. That little vial turned bright blue and nearly swore at me in German. 7.6.

So I put some more pH Down in there, but the question remains, what's up with this? We haven't tested the pH out of the tap yet, though that's tonight. Should I even worry about it until some fish get in there? And is it maybe too late to go fishless?

Thanks in advance.

[ChilDawg]

It's not too late to go fishless, but lowering your pH won't work unless the buffering capacity (read: hardness) is removed from your water. I would suggest getting fish which match your water parameters, specifically shelldwellers from Tanganyika.

[ChilDawg]

This thread has a bunch of links about shellies: http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8744&highlight=shellies

[JSchmidt]

The simple answer is that your water has high pH and that it is very difficult to lower pH using chemicals. In fact, for the beginner, I'd pretty much say that it's not possible.

The less simple answer is that water has some element of buffering - we refer to this as alkalinity or carbonate hardness (KH). The water's buffer serves to stabilize pH, and it takes up acids (much like a sponge) That's why you can add pH down and see an immediate decrease in pH, only to have it reverse later as the buffer takes up the acid. You CAN keep adding acid (i.e., pH Down) until the buffer is exhausted, but that leaves your water totally without buffering against pH change, allowing pH to swing wildly. To make matters worse, every time you do a water change, you'll replenish the buffer and pH will jump up.

What can you do? For starters, you can find a high-range pH kit. These usually measure up to 8.6 or 9.0, and can give you a better idea of what your water's pH actually is. What sort of fish do you want to keep? Most common hobby fish will do well in water with pH up to 8.0. Some of the softwater varieties may not breed in that water, but many of us successfully keep fish like tetras and angelfish in water near 8.0.

It isn't too late to go fishless and you might want to reconsider. Cycling with fish can be done, but for a novice it pretty much forces you to be hypervigilant to keep ammonia and nitrite levels low enough that your fish aren't killed or injured. You'll also have to do regular, sometimes daily, water changes to keep your fish healthy and/or alive. Fishless cycling forces you to look at an empty tank for however long it takes, but that's much better than looking at dead or stressed fish.

If you decide to go fishless, we can talk you through it. For starters, though, you'll want to find out what your water's acutal pH is. It wouldn't hurt to find out what its General Hardness (GH) and carbonate hardness (KH) are, either. Often, your LFS will test for you and tell you where you stand. (Just don't fall for a sales pitch for some magic potion that will 'fix' your problem.)

Good luck,
Jim

[val]

shaggy, to Aquaria Central, home of the most pH - conscious fishkeepers on the internet:)

The first thought is stop with the pH Up and Down. Better yet, toss it out. Adding chemicals to balance something as basic (no pun intended) as pH will just produce headaches for you. You'll need a high range pH test to get an idea of where your water is exactly.

As for ammonia, nothing's going to happen yet to the ammonia yet because there's nothing to break it down. Also, since you don't have any fish yet in the tank, there's nothing adding ammonia to the system yet. You've no doubt read about nitrogen cycle, and you may remember all kinds of cycles from your high school biology, but note that the aquarium is by and large a closed system, and you are putting all the inputs into it.

So, what kind of fish have attracted you to this point? Providing a good home in a small tank is a challenge, so let us know what you're thinking. And welcome, once again to AC.

Val

Edit: Jim and I must have posted at the same time, and once again his answer is more thorough than mine. Good luck...

[VoodooChild]

I'll just throw in a quick 2 cents. If your pH really is at 7.6, you have nothing to worry about. As long as you don't get apistos or other specialty (expensive) fish, you shouldn't have a problem at all. If you're worried about it, ask your LFS where their pH is at, and acclimate the fish from there.

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by VoodooChild
I'll just throw in a quick 2 cents. If your pH really is at 7.6, you have nothing to worry about. As long as you don't get apistos or other specialty (expensive) fish, you shouldn't have a problem at all. If you're worried about it, ask your LFS where their pH is at, and acclimate the fish from there.

This is true, but if shaggyspeedy's pH test is reading at it's max, he/she has no way of knowing if pH is 7.6 or 8.6 or higher.

I agree with the main thrust of Voodoo Child's post completely, though.

Jim

[shaggyspeedy]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
This is true, but if shaggyspeedy's pH test is reading at it's max, he/she has no way of knowing if pH is 7.6 or 8.6 or higher.

He, thank you. :D

After reading the suggestions posted, I'll probably run by the LFS today to pick up a higher end pH test. If we truly are in the 7.6 range, then I guess we really don't need to worry... it just gave us the shakes when the test peaked. I may pick up the Nitrite/Nitrate tests too, seeing as I'll need them later when I fishless cycle. ;) (My fiancee won't be happy, but she'll survive.)

And I hate to give out the common answer, but we're probably going to go with some Neon Tetras to start with. Sure, everybody has Neons, but it seems like a good starting point, especially for a tank as small as mine.

I've already done a lot of reading, and I already like the community here. I'm hoping to stick around and learn tons, though I hope the instant paranoia of LFSes will soon subside.

[ChilDawg]

I do have one suggestion--you might want an ammonia test, too, since that will be the way in which you know that your tank has ended the ammonia phase of fishless cycling.

[shaggyspeedy]

Well, take everything I just said and throw it out the window.

Before I left work, I called home to catch my fiancee before she left for class.

"Did you check the aquarium?" I asked.
"Yes, I did." She responded.
"So, how did it test?" I queried.
"I, er, uh, didn't check it like that." She says.

What?

Apparently she went to a different LFS (not that that's bad, I hadn't really found one I liked yet). The guy there sold her on an underground filter. He didn't have any to sell, but he told her that it'll help with bacteria growth.. which of course, it will.

Of course, to install an undergravel filter, you have to completely disassemble the tank.

So I come home, and the tank is empty, the undergravel filter sitting in the bottom. A new air pump sits nearby, lacking the split to hook it up to the filter. The gravel sits in a plastic tub, and the fake plants and outside power filter sits in a pot.

So, we start over. Hooray.

One quick brand-spankin new question... the guy at this new LFS says that he apparently uses this powder that neutralizes ammonia AND brings pH to 7.0... no word if it can turn water into wine or do your taxes yet. As much as I want to call shenannigans, my fiancee told me that she felt she could really trust this guy, as it's a "family business", and the guy gave her a business card with an e-mail and AIM name in case any problems arise. That seems pretty, for the lack of a better word, honest. So I'm not sure on this one.

[ChilDawg]

Honesty and knowledge are not the same thing, and this product sounds too good to be true. I don't think chemically lowering your pH without actually filtering out buffers is a good idea.

[wetmanNY]

Let me suggest that you look into a brand-new product called Bio-Spira. Read up on it at www.marineland.com I've been following articles by this guy Hovanecs for years and he's trustworthy. Later you should read all his articles archived at that site.

Let me suggest that you look into an ammonia-sequestering chemical called AmQuel put out by Kordon. It will give you false positive tests for ammonia, but it locks the ammonia in a form that's non-toxic but available to the nitrifying bacteria you are soon to know more intimately than any except E. coli!

Let me suggest that now, before you throw away all the packaging, you take the unused undergravel filter back to the lfs-- for credit, not a refund. Trade it in for a bag of red Flourite to mix with your gravel. Later you may want to have real plants. Meanwhile the laterite will help stabilize phosphate levels etc.

Let me suggest you get David E. Boruchowitz, The Simple Guide to Freshwater Aquariums. www.amazon.com could have it in your hands before the weekend.

Let me recommend that you bookmark www.thekrib.com for constant reference. Read the FAQs there now. Read all the rest of that site tomorrow!

Let me suggest that you avoid neons, with your alkaline water. Go with some Barbs or Danios for now. Better get the website for Toledo Water Dept. and work out what the alkalinity (KH) of your water is.

...and take an old man's advice, move slower and work each step out together.

[carpguy]

The mighty WetFeller is playing all modest-like. You should also be sure to bookmark as a constant reference his very excellent SkepticalAquarist (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com) . (His irony is chelated so that its easier to absorb than when he's being irascible ;) ).

If your pH test kit runs to high of 7.6 (it should specify a range) then 10.6 will read as 7.6 and 9.6 will and 8.6 will. If its over the high end, you'll just keep getting the same color.

Ammonia will appear in your tank as either NH3 (ammonia) or NH4 (ammonium). NH3 is highly toxic while NH4 is not. The water's pH is what decides on how much of each form is present in the water. If you have a high pH the ammonia will be more toxic during your fishy cycle. If you are going fishy you should definitely look into BioSpira (and report back on it! Its new and folks are waiting to hear…)

And as for the Under Gravel Filter (http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/rtrrfug.shtml), some folks are fans and some not. You'll find more than you ever wanted to know about filtration (http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/filterbasics1.shtml) if you follow the link… and if you're still standing you can head over to the WetMan's for more.

I think a lot of folks around here are instantly suspicious of the fishstores (idiots and theives). Most likely your guy is an honest joe who knows what he knows and wouldn't mind making a sale. He could be a great resource. He could be wrong about a few things. He could be both at the same time. Trust but verify.

HTH

[Cearbhaill]

Most likely your guy is an honest joe who knows what he knows and wouldn't mind making a sale. He could be a great resource. He could be wrong about a few things. He could be both at the same time. Trust but verify.
Truer words have never been spoken.

I just re-entered the hobby after a long lay off, and have scoured the web for good sites with info I trust. Really- the only links you need are The Skeptical Aquarist (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/) and this one (AC). There are lots more with varying degrees of useful, well organized (or not) information, but I always find myself returning to these two.

[ROLLIN]

Originally posted by shaggyspeedy




And I hate to give out the common answer, but we're probably going to go with some Neon Tetras to start with. Sure, everybody has Neons, but it seems like a good starting point, especially for a tank as small as mine.




Ive had fish for years but Ive never had neons, although I might try them sometime.

[shaggyspeedy]

Yet another update.

I went and met the owner of the store... seemed like a good guy, and his tanks were immaculate. Very well set up. I asked him about this seemingly magic powder (who's name I can't remember... I'll post it when I get home), and he showed it to me, and told me some of the basics on it. Says he's used it before and it works perfect, he's even put it in a tank with fish, and it doesn't harm them.

So when I left there to go to work, I called my fiancee and told her to go ahead and pick up some fish. She picked up 3 Danios (I don't remember what breed). She added the powder, let the fish acclimate to the water, and released 'em. At last check (about 45 minutes ago), they were swimming happily.

I'll get you the name of this product when I get home.

[Mantis_22]

either Giant Danios or zebras I would say. Giants are better though IMO. Anyways heres a question from me too within the same topic. My PH is 7.6 due to the water hardness. Thing is how Can I get rid of that hardness or whatever so the PH can stabalize? Is there a chemical or something? Or will it stablalize in the final stages of nitrates while im cycling???

[shaggyspeedy]

Turns out they're Zebra Danios. They certainly are active, but they seem to be adapting nicely.

Also, Here's the mystery chemical: Neutral Regulator (http://www.seachem.com/en_products/product_pages/030_ntrl_rgltr.html)

Edit: For a little comedy, we happened to catch Iron Chef tonight.... sure enough, it's a sushi battle. I certainly hope they aren't watching! :eek:

[Bristlenose Chuck]

I have never heard of that stuff before but Seachem is a wonderful company. I trust them. The only problem I can see is that you may run into algae problems because of the product's use of phosphate.

P.S. You really should bookmark WetmanNY's website. It's one of the best out there bar none.

[Mantis_22]

I have never heard of this stuff either.... Would it be safe to use this product while cycling a tank normally? Wouldent it affect the growth of the tank in speed and overall baceria rate by adjusting the PH? Or am I wrong, I never have used PH UP or DOWN chemicals before since to the fact they never work. I wonder if this will. If it can get my water hardness and PH Lower im all for it...

[carpguy]

Zebra Danios! The Cyprinids colonize yet another living room… Today Toledo, tomorrow?

They're known for being hardy fish that are commonly recommended for cycling. This doesn't mean they're immune to the harmful effects of ammonia, just that they're hardy fish. Use regular water changes to keep your ammonia levels down during the cycle. Water changes won't slow the cycle but will make things easier on your fish… You'll wan't test kits for Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates if you don't have them yet. And again with the recommendation to look into the BioSpira.

Zebra Danios (http://fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.cfm?genusname=Danio&speciesname=rerio), along with being famously hardy and :eek: active:eek: , are very flexible with their pH range and should be fine with whatever you have. (I couldn't find a good water report for Toledo btw, but you are getting ground and lake water and are in a glacial till zone with limestone karst lying about so you probably do have fairly hard water).

Seachem is a good company with a good reputation. I don't understand how they're dropping the pH with phosphate buffers but the sauce apparently does work. The main objection to these sorts of fixes is that they promote instability unless you stick with them religiously. They need to go in at certain doses at each (weekly) water change and need to be replenished in the tank as they get used up or you'll wind up with a gyrating pH. Slightly higher than preferred but stable is better than in range but fluctuating.

Danios are good to go anywhere from pH6-8. I'd find some fish that are happy in the water you have and minimize the tinkering. You're friendly neighborhood FishStore Guy should be able to test your water for you at least to establish a baseline profile.

Enjoy…

[JSchmidt]

Neutral regulator won't do anything to combat the ammonia that will soon begin to build up in the tank and that will burn your fishes' gills unless you do water changes. You will need to check ammonia levels and change water to keep ammonia low; with your high pH, I'd try to keep it below .5 ppm.

Use of phosphate-laden neutral regulators is about as poor a 'solution' for high pH as is pH Down. Here's what you can expect:

Add some of the regulator. Your pH instantly goes down. Check again the next day. pH is back up. Add more regulator and pH again drops, probably temporarily. Repeat pattern a couple of times. Notice how slippery your hand feels after coming in contact with tank water; feels like it's coated with soap (that's because the phosphates have softened the water). By now you have to do a water change because the uncycled tank has dangerous levels of ammonia. You add tap water, which instantly causes pH to shoot back up to original levels. Fish begin to look a bit sluggish. (First they're swimming in low pH, high-phosphate water, now they're in high pH water...) You add more neutral regulator to get pH lower. Again, pH drops quickly, then rebounds. Repeat pattern of adding regulator again. You notice the water is getting a bit greenish. This is the beginning of a massive bloom of freefloating, unicellular algae, caused by all the phosphates in the water compliments of the neutral regulator. Helpful LFS guy sells you some algae killer, which further screws up water chemistry. Ammonia in the tank is again high, which necessitates a water change, leading to the pH yo-yo again... and on...

I hope this scenario doesn't play out for you, but it is depressingly common. It is often caused by an unfortunate confluence of enthusiasm/impulsivity, a tendency to believe whatever the 'nice' LFS guy says, and ignoring the more conservative advice offered here that counsels you to figure out what you're doing before stocking your tank. Many (most) of us have either been there ourselves, or we've helped enough beginners to recognize a pattern.

Remember two things:
1. Chemicals added to your tank rarely fix any problems.
2. Water changes are your best line of defense against problems in a tank. Anything that makes it harder/more problematic to do water changes constitutes a questionable practice for beginners, in my book.

Good luck,
Jim

[shaggyspeedy]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Here's what you can expect:

Add some of the regulator. Your pH instantly goes down. Check again the next day. pH is back up. Add more regulator and pH again drops, probably temporarily. Repeat pattern a couple of times.

See, here's where you're assuming. Sure enough, the pH was back up, and the first thing I did was NOT PUT ANY REGULATOR BACK IN. Honestly, if the pH shot back up, then it obviously doesn't do a good job of keeping it down, now does it? :D I may be new, but I ain't dumb.

I keep forgetting to pick up a higher-end pH test, so I'll do that today. Then I'll go talk to the LFS guy and see how good he really is. :)

Edit: By the way, I did test my tap, and it shot right to 7.6. Surprise, surprise.

[New2Fish]

Congrats on the new hobby! It sounds like we started about the same time. Good luck with everything. Sorry I don't have any advise for you.

[Bristlenose Chuck]

It is much much easier to figure out your water conditions and then choose the fish you want to keep. You certainly have been doing a great job of figureing out your water conditions but your choice of neon tetras in your local water is not advisable. I'm not saying that its impossible its just that neons do much better in soft acidic water. I hope I am not discouraging you because there are many beautiful fish out there that are right for your water. Many African cichlid lovers would kill for your water conditions.

[Matak]

From Carpguy: (His irony is chelated so that its easier to absorb than when he's being irascible ). ROFLing! truly sharp witted :D


Shaggy, Has your fiance' (Scooby?) tried using this forum? It would be really helpfull for your tank (and your relationship) if you both got your info from the same reliable source. Maybe she could get her own username to feel more at home here.