And just who do you think you are?

[Irish563]

I have kept a variety of pufferfish in my years. I have some friends that I have turned onto puffers as well. A friend of mine currently has 2 gsp in a 30 gallon. He continues to whine at me that everyone tells him he is wrong, and that his puffers need 30 gallons EACH. Now, he may be wrong, or they may be wrong, but my question is:
Just who do you think you are? Who are these people that write articles? Are they hobbyists like myself? Are they marine biologists? Zoolologists?
I think we can all agree that not everyone who posts/writes anything on fish is correct. So I am wondering why I can read 6 different "guides" on the same subject, and all of them are "correct" beyond a shadow of a doubt?
I'm not picking on anyone, but what makes them right?

Irish

[Blueiz]

Are you reffering to something specific on AC?

I don thtink you will find anything anywhere that is correct beyond a shadow of a doubt. Articles and the such are written from personal experience. Different ppl may have different experiences, doesnt make anything wrong, just different.

Turn the question back on yourself, what makes you "correct beyond a shadow of a doubt"? Not saying you have said you are. Just pointing out that any disagreements you may have most likely come from a different experience you have had.

Blue

[Irish563]

Which is exactly what I'm saying. While I'm not pointing fingers, if everyone is just writing from personal experience, then why do people quote responses from sticky articles, or articles on other websites as "law"?
Not only that, but too many people are posting their personal opinion, and now people like to take sides and argue. It all seems rather ignorant to me.
I just thought that maybe some of these people were experts somehow.

Irish

[Blueiz]

How can you not post from personal experience? All the book knowledge in the world is worthless if you dont have experience to go with it. I would take someones advice that they are giving from personal experience anyday over someones that comes from a book. Dont you think that makes more sense?

I work on a farm. We do have an instruction manual, a very detailed one. I could not take that book never having been on a farm before and work the farm as it should be because I dont have the experience to know what to look for.

This could be a never ending debate, however I think you will find the majority if not all ppl would take someone who has experience advice that is written in article form over any ones that is pulled from a book, regardless of who the book was written by or what credentials they have.

Blue

[Omega]

What is considered right is usually the consensus among experts and hobbyists of what is best for the fish, within reason.

[Irish563]

I never said anything about a book. I also refuse to point fingers, but I can say that I have read so many articles and posts on different subjects and on different forums to make anyones head spin.
Maybe I'm not making myself clear. How many times have you read something that you KNEW to be completely wrong? How many other people have read that same article and done exactly what it says only to kill numerous fish? These people, can then:
1) Quit the hobby. (laugh, but it does happen)
2) Buy, then consequently kill more fish.
3) Do more research.
I put them in that order, because the majority of the time, this is what happens. There really should be a way to keep this kind of thing in check.
There should be a grading system, or some kind of credentials needed. I know that sounds extreme, but I really am sick of reading all of this crap, by these "know-it-alls" that hae done no more research than the "noobs" reading it and accepting it as law.

[Germanman]

i understand your point your making but you just have to pic and choose who you want to believe and then see what works for yourself the reason for threads is to answer questions in a community of fish keepers and if an answer is wrong someone else can comment and fix that. thats the point of a community.. to work together. working in an aquarium store i see diffrent ways of keeping fish everyday some people make thing work certain ways.(might not always be the healthiest for the fish but works). we just have to trust each other and like with any science(fish keeping is a science in a way) we must review our peers and learn through trial and error.

[Irish563]

What is considered right is usually the consensus among experts and hobbyists of what is best for the fish, within reason.

You are right. But when you have to "wade" in the crap to find what you are looking for, it gets maddening. As I stated before, I dont want to point fingers at anyone, but I'm sure that if you or anyone else picks a topic, spends five minutes researching it, you would be surprised at just how many inconsice pieces of info are out there. You generally have to match 2 out of 3 articles with the same general idea to know you are onto something. Then there are those that spout their ludicris opinions to people who need help on a subject. These people go unchecked.

Irish

[Germanman]

thats why like any good aquarist you do your own research so you can pick out the bull. thats what i have learned in the science community and what my favorite professor taught me you have to learn how to filter the wrong out its a skill not all possess but if you care so much ull learn it. not even the experts are always right thats why scientific reasearch is peer reviewed several times before being published.

[Blueiz]

You are right. But when you have to "wade" in the crap to find what you are looking for, it gets maddening. As I stated before, I dont want to point fingers at anyone, but I'm sure that if you or anyone else picks a topic, spends five minutes researching it, you would be surprised at just how many inconsice pieces of info are out there. You generally have to match 2 out of 3 articles with the same general idea to know you are onto something. Then there are those that spout their ludicris opinions to people who need help on a subject. These people go unchecked.

Irish


OK, you refuse to point fingers. I am left wondering exactly what you are talking about, and why you posted it in this particular forum.

Honestly...You are sounding like one of the ppl youre not going to point your finger at...

Blue

[Irish563]

i understand your point your making but you just have to pic and choose who you want to believe and then see what works for yourself the reason for threads is to answer questions in a community of fish keepers and if an answer is wrong someone else can comment and fix that. thats the point of a community.. to work together. working in an aquarium store i see diffrent ways of keeping fish everyday some people make thing work certain ways.(might not always be the healthiest for the fish but works). we just have to trust each other and like with any science(fish keeping is a science in a way) we must review our peers and learn through trial and error.

True. I guess I am just sick and tired of "know-it-alls" that are not only blatently WRONG when they give advice, but they are downright rude to "noobs" who are asking questions and dont know any better yet. We were all "noobs" once, and I have seen a rise in this lately. It makes me sick.

Irish

[Germanman]

OK, you refuse to point fingers. I am left wondering exactly what you are talking about, and why you posted it in this particular forum.

Honestly...You are sounding like one of the ppl youre not going to point your finger at...

Blue

i agree lol why is this such a big deal we all think it but why the dramatics?

[Germanman]

True. I guess I am just sick and tired of "know-it-alls" that are not only blatently WRONG when they give advice, but they are downright rude to "noobs" who are asking questions and dont know any better yet. We were all "noobs" once, and I have seen a rise in this lately. It makes me sick.

Irish

well ill admit when im wrong and will always double check things before i post them. just hang in there and nubes dont exist its just a nice way of calling someone ignorant. dont let it bug you some just have more time under there belt and knowledge in their head.

[Irish563]

OK, you refuse to point fingers. I am left wondering exactly what you are talking about, and why you posted it in this particular forum.

Honestly...You are sounding like one of the ppl youre not going to point your finger at...

Blue

Leave it to a moderator in inflame things....:devil:

Irish

[Blueiz]

I personally cant answer for others as to why., I do know tht in order to create a more positive attitude-enviroment on the forum, corrective criticism could be made in a more postive way all the way around. Such as offering a positive slution as well as speaking of the negative problem. When you put someone on the defensive..well..you get just that , a defensive response. This needs to be thought about by ALL when replying to threads, offering advice. Also, you cant be the pot calling the kettle black.

I am moving this to GCC as brackish is not the place for this thread.

Blue

[Germanman]

just chill man its ok hes not trying to anger u.

[Blueiz]

just chill man its ok hes not trying to anger u.

Actaully, I am a she..;)...

[Germanman]

Actaully, I am a she..;)...

sry bout that didnt know...lol

[Siren]

Okay here is my opinion (and it's called an opinion, because it is neither right nor wrong...come on people, remember those civics classes??). I completely agree with Germanman on the fact that being able to do competant research is a skill that is learned and not everyone can do it. But let me pose you this question. You have two "experts" on fishkeeping....

Subject A just graduated with a PhD in zoology, with an undergraduate degree in biochemistry. So, this person has had 6+ years of very expensive schooling, knows how an aquarium should be balanced down to the molecular level. BUT this person has never had his own aquarium. Has never had any hands on experience balancing a tank under less than optimum conditions as are presented in his state of the art lab. Oh, he's watched his undergrad assistants struggle with bucket after bucket of dead/dying fish and invertebrates as he's experimented, but that's as far as he's gone towards having a tank of his own.

Subject B doesn't have a college degree. Has worked odd jobs his whole life, none related to fish or aquarium sciences. BUT this person has had an aquarium since he was old enough to read the instructions on the Penn Plax sponge filter box. He started with a goldfish in a bowl and eventually worked his way towards a SW reef tank. He has many tanks in his home, complete with several rare species he has had the extreme pleasure of breeding. There isn't a plaque hanging on his wall proclaiming him a scientist, but he is one in his own right.

Subject A and Subject B both actively post on several fishkeeper related boards.

NOW- the question...who do you take advice from? Who is the expert? He with the degree and the paper diploma to prove it? Or the humble man, breeding fish in his basement?

I don't know about you, but I don't think a diploma makes a fishkeeper. Now, before you start bashing me about not respecting those with a degree, let me tell you, I have one in Biology/Psychology with an emphasis on animal behavior. Does that make me a better fishkeeper? In one word, No. But it does help me with researching and formulating ideas and teesting them out. That's what this hobby is all about. Testing things that have worked for others and coming up with our own way of doing things. It's called discovery...something the human race is very good at, with or without a formal education.

[Germanman]

i completely agree with you Siren but dont forget the person that had an aquarium since he/she could handle it and has a degree lol. nice post!
its diffrent for every person.
i believe my constant reading and the fact that i get to see so many different fish at my work combine with my current schooling and understanding of biology has made me able to keep the fish i currently have.

[Omega]

You are right. But when you have to "wade" in the crap to find what you are looking for, it gets maddening. As I stated before, I dont want to point fingers at anyone, but I'm sure that if you or anyone else picks a topic, spends five minutes researching it, you would be surprised at just how many inconsice pieces of info are out there. You generally have to match 2 out of 3 articles with the same general idea to know you are onto something. Then there are those that spout their ludicris opinions to people who need help on a subject. These people go unchecked.What articles are wrong and why?

[Cheech]

True. I guess I am just sick and tired of "know-it-alls" that are not only blatently WRONG when they give advice, but they are downright rude to "noobs" who are asking questions and dont know any better yet. We were all "noobs" once, and I have seen a rise in this lately. It makes me sick.

Irish



Amen to that.

Forums alone will not have the answers you're looking for. But, Forums, talking to people, reading, trying things out, experiencing things for yourself, will all contribute to guiding you in the right direction to what is closest to being the "right" way of doing something.


Let's face it. We're all trying to recreate a natural habitat (that's been around for millions of years) in a glass box, for fish to be confortable in. And we're convinced that there's a "right or wrong " way of doing so. It's not that simple. It's an ongoing learning process.


"Know-it-alls" will always be around.. On this site, at the work place, you'll always have to deal with them. Absorb what they tell you. Some of it will help guide you in the right direction, other info will be crap, (which ultimately will also guide you in the right direction). Don't take anything personally, and use the info (whether good or bad) to help make you smarter.


All this to say, enjoy the site, get as much info as you can, respect and take everyones opinions as a learning experience, and don't let anyone get to you. :)

[fballguy]

I don't want to offend anyone, but I just wanted to say that I can not stand it when people don't "point fingers". How is anybody going to know they are doing something wrong if you don't tell them? Personally, if somebody feels that I am doing something that I should not be doing, or that I am saying things that should not be said, I want to know about it so I can do my best to fix it. I would rather have somebody come to me with their problem so that I can do my best to fix what I am doing, rather than have the person stay quiet about it and continue to be frustrated by me. And when I see or hear somebody doing something that I feel is wrong, I give them the same respect that I would want from them, and I let them know about it.


As far as your position on "know-it-alls." I hear you there. Especially when it comes to bettas. Nothing bothers me more then when a person says that bettas only do good in really small tanks, and will die in large tanks. Heck, they live in puddles in the wild right? :rolleyes:

[Irish563]

I've been on several forums for awhile now. Mostly to read what others are saying. But lately on a couple of forums I have seen people who are trying to "impart wisdom" on others (weither they want it or not) and insisting that their "facts" are law. My gripe basically is that:
1) If people need help, help them. Dont try to give an answer that leaves them more confused than when they started. Dont be an a$$ about it either. The only stupid question is an unasked question.
2) I have no problem with people who offer assistance even when it wasnt asked for, but it has to do with the tone in which it is given.
3) If I tell you that the sky is green, and thats how it is without giving you or anyone else an explanation, then I become an a$$. Also, if I'm telling people that the sky is green, someone needs to say something that knows better, or make me explain how I came by this. Many new people dont read as far into research as myself or others will and can be mislead by these kinds of people. I have seen or heard about too many people quitting the hobby over crap like that. My brother was one of them.

Irish

[Siren]

I don't want to offend anyone, but I just wanted to say that I can not stand it when people don't "point fingers". How is anybody going to know they are doing something wrong if you don't tell them? Personally, if somebody feels that I am doing something that I should not be doing, or that I am saying things that should not be said, I want to know about it so I can do my best to fix it. I would rather have somebody come to me with their problem so that I can do my best to fix what I am doing, rather than have the person stay quiet about it and continue to be frustrated by me. And when I see or hear somebody doing something that I feel is wrong, I give them the same respect that I would want from them, and I let them know about it....


I agree completely, How can I make myself a better person if i never know what I am doing is offensive? :huh: Very well said!

[Mgamer20o0]

i am the one and only MG

[jm1212]

if you dont tell the person that there is a problem they cannot fix it.