Noob w/ Neons dying =(

[pharasalia]

Hiya!

I am completely new here. I just posted in the Intro sections. I'm so happy I found this place.

Normally, I am a research hound and belong to forums about my pets and am involved (I love ATSHQ.org).. but maybe I was arrogant and thought I knew what I was doing, but I was excited and so I didn't get online until too late (ie, the fish already in the tank). So now I am cycling my tank w/ fish. I've read the articles. I've added some Bio-spira type stuff just in case it helps. I am monitoring water parameters daily and doing water changes to keep the ammonia under control - so far I'm getting nitrites showing up in tiny amts and nitrates now also so I know the bio filter is beginning to be established. Now that I've found these forums, I am here to learn and hope I haven't screwed things up too bad. This is my 20g long tank I'm speaking of.. it currently has 6 zebra danios and 2 rosy barbs in it.

Here is the problem. I have a freshly set up 2.5gallon tank at work that is my responsibility now (after setting up my 20g my boss decided, yea, fish at the office!). It is a fresh tank, ie, was not cycled properly. It is stocked w/ gravel and fake plants, has a filter and airstone. It was stocked initially with 5 neon tetras and 1 glofish and has only been set up for about 3-4 days. Unfortunately, in that amt of time, 2 of the neons have died. One in transport, and one within 8 hours after transport so I think stress was the cause... but after some reading I have learned about the different water parameters for the neons... so am not sure if that may also be the problem.... my master test kit only tests pH, nitrites, and nitrates - not water hardness... and I'm thinking our water is hard.

I don't want to get too flamed/scolded at the outset - after all, I've come here to cure my ignorance on these issues and hopefully save the fish that have now become my little dependents. I'm completely addicted to this now and am more than ready to roll up my sleeves and do as many pwc, water testing, and reading articles etc as it takes to come out the other side as a successful fish keeper - one where my babies thrive. As it is, the loss of the 2 neons makes me very sad.

I am going to stop at pet stores on my way home and try to find a separate test that tests water hardness... but what else should I do? When I tested the tank earlier, ammonia was at 0.5ppm, nitrites 0, and I didn't test for nitrates as I'm assuming there is no bacteria growing in this tank yet. Please help!

Oh, ps, this does not appear to be that neon disease... the fish were completely healthy and swimming all weekend before transport to the office and have no sores or milkiness or other symptoms of the disease.

Thank you in advance..

[misscrosson]

please test nitrates......and hard water shouldnt matter much, i have neons, and my water is very hard..they adapt

[jm1212]

most neon tetras available are maas bred in fhsih farms, so your pH and hardness probably didint play a factor unless your pH was over 9 or something extremely high like that.

what im more concerned about is the stocking. 5 neons and a glofish are to amny for a 2.5 gallon. they were probably stressed from being so crowded and they died as a result. neons are not good with stress.

[pharasalia]

I came for advice and so really - don't take this the wrong way, I'm not doubting you... but they hardly seem overcrowded or stressed from it. The tank actually positively seems to swamp them. They have lots of room. If anything, the tank they came from was far far more crowded than this... as pet stores seem to stock their tanks to the max.

I retested all my lvls just now and this is what I came up with:

pH - was as high as 8 yesterday, tested now at 7.8-7.9
Ammonia - 0.5ppm (I know any above 0 is bad, but this tank isn't cycled yet)
Nitrites - between 0-0.25ppm
Nitrates - 7-8ppm

As far as stocking, what is currently in the tank now:
3 neon tetras (they are very small, not even close to adult size)
1 Glofish, also very small

I am already 15 min late closing up the office so I could finish my testing and I have to go now so I won't be able to do more until the morning. I don't have another tank or the money for one so I can lighten the bioload in there.

One of the neons is swimming around and a bit perkier than the other 2, they seem so be hanging out mostly towards the bottom, swimming lightly, appearing pretty normal.

What can I do now to help these guys out? I'm really so attached already =(

Thank you!

[clawlan]

neons are notorious for dying easily (though many people have had no problems) Make sure you are acclimating them properly to the tank very slowly. Search this forum for tips on how to acclimate. Also, if you still ahve no luck, maybe try a hardier fish that has some color like lambchop rasboras, glowlight tetras, or harlequin rasboras.

[joander123]

...first of all your neons arent going to get much bigger... and ur goldfish may be small at the moment but will get pretty big pretty fast.... goldfish and neons should not be kept in the same tank due to the fact that goldfish like colder water and lower ph.... it may seem right now that ur tank is not overstocked but that will change very quickly, and you should probably try to find another place for the goldfish due to the fact that 2.5 gallons is not sufficent. And believe it or not i am no where near as extreme as some of the people you will find on this board when it comes to stocking.

As for your neons, they may be dying due to cold temp? (what is the temperature of the water?) or it could be possible that you didnt acclimate them well enough as stated by clawlan. Neons arent terrificly hardy and you need to be careful, and stay on water params like you have. Watch the nitrites, they are very toxic to fish and will make your neons die rather quickly if you're not careful.

but overall, i would just say make sure all water conditions are fine, and find a new home for the goldfish and you should be fine.

Good luck,
-Jay

[clawlan]

... and ur goldfish may be small at the moment but will get pretty big pretty fast...

Jay, I think she has "Glofish" not "goldfish" unless she mistyped.

[jm1212]

the fish stores always OS their tanks because the fish are only in there for less than a week. in my area, the petsmarts get their shippments every wednesday. all of the angelicus loaches, otos, convicts, severum, and most of the neons, midas, and fire mouths are gone by sunday. i think i was in thwere once when they still had one of each of those fish left, and that was a day when noone wanted to leave their houses because we were getting 5 inches of rain.

[joander123]

ahhh well if it is a glofish the tank would be ok probably, and i would say just watch water conditions and such, but if its a goldfish i would say you should try to find him a new home

-Jay

[Marinemom]

She did say glofish not goldfish so they should be fine togather. However, I am concerned that there may be too many fish for such a tiny tank. Really in such a confined space I would be surprised if the fish live very long in this situation. I would also consider getting some hardier fish such as the harlequin rasboras if these gys do not make it. They are very cute and should do well in that size tank.

Marinemom

[Reddog80p]

Hi welcome to AC,

Just wondering if you added a quality dechlorinator like Prime to your tap water, before adding your fish. I agree that 5 neons and a glofish Is pretty overstocked for a 2.5 Gal. I know It does'nt appear that way but it is what it is. I think you're ok with the 3 neons and the glofish. You'll want to do a water change anytime the ammonia level reaches .25 or higher, and or when the nitrIte level reaches .25 or higher. Make sure you add a declorinator (Prime recommended) to the tap water and match the temperature of the tank water when adding the water. Smaller tanks are harder to manage than larger tanks, so your pH may fluctuate a little bit when doing water changes. If your tank does not have a heater you'll need to get one, neons are tropical. Good Luck and again welcome to AC!

[pharasalia]

Thank you all for the replies...

Yes, it is a Glofish (ie, tinkered with zebra danio) and not a goldfish... even I know better than that! hehe.

I am still hoping the 3 remaining neons will live... I remember them from being a kid - seems like everyone loves a neon - but I had no idea that they quite so delicate.

I will be checking the water parameters daily until the tank comes to some sort of equilibrium... it has a regular but small filter and not that undergravel junk so it should be able to grow bacteria okay, right?

When I said my neons weren't adult sized, I just meant, no where near 1.5 inches in length... honestly, I've never seen any neons that size but unfortunately now I am thinking that isn't my lack of opportunity but rather that they die fairly easily. =(

Yes, I did use a dechlorinator... although, I don't know the difference from brand to brand so you tell me, is this quality enough? Tetra Aquasafe is what I have....

I generally am very careful about adding in my water temps... but perhaps there was a difference w/ the water change this morning.. I will be extra cautious with that... is the finger test okay or should I actually use a thermometer or is that unneccesary?

I can't think of anything else at the moment... I'll come back and post an update when I get to the office in the morning... here is to hoping the 3 lil neons survive the nite...

Thank you!

[pharasalia]

Good morning!

My neons made it thorugh the nite well and seem to be doing just fine. In fact, they seem to be acclimating and are more active and exhibiting some schooling behavior. I just love these little guys.

I haven't tested the water parameters yet, but I am going to here in a bit. Waiting for the office to settle down a bit w/ the phone lol.

One thing I am seeing and wondering about now however... is a possible personality discord between the glofish and the neons.... based mostly on their different swim styles. My Glofish is your typical danio - fast, darty, loves to be active, wants swim mates.. my neons are what I figure is fairly typical for neons... way more laid back, school and swim around but not fast and darty. I think perhaps my Glofish is a bit frustrated they won't swim with it they way it wants them to... they have been nipped at a few times very lightly since I have been watching them this morning (nothing serious).

Do you think, for their combined happiness, should I take the Glofish out? I have danios in the 20g long tank I have at home and it most likely would fit right in... then I could add another neon back into this tank? Three is a bit few to school at all... what do you think? I certainly won't want to keep the glofish in there if the nipping ever became more than what it is now...

Thank you!

[jm1212]

your glofish will probably be happeir with some more zebras to swim around with. adding him to your 20 gallon would probably be best for both.

[pharasalia]

I think I am definitely going to do that.. it may have to wait until tomorrow though because I don't have a net here yet lol. I think that would be the best... the neons came out just a min ago and were schooling with the glofish and then as I watched the glofish gently herded them around, like it was trying to get them to speed up or something lol. They ended up just moving over to the corner and hanging out by themselves.

[Star_Rider]

the 2.5 is still cycling..correct?

I would let it finish cycling before adding any more stock to it.
once it is cycled..then you can [lay with the stock..the existing bacteria can )fairly quickly) compensate for minor shifts in waste.

[pharasalia]

I know from water tests today that I definitely have both types of bacteria in there and growing so that makes me happy. I will of course, be waiting until the parameters straighten out and the cycle appears complete. The glofish I'm going to go ahead and remove tomorrow so it doesn't stress the neons any.

Thank you so much for your help everyone.

I am just loving these little guys. With the way the desk lamp and the light on their tank is, and with dark gravel, their color really stands out, and their eyes glow like 2 little neon lights when they turn and face straight outward at you.


Not that I don't love the glofish... I'm actually quite excited about seeing it swimming with my danios in the home tank. =)

[Star_Rider]

I enjoy the black neons(technically not a neon-Hyphessobrycon Herbertaxelrodi)) they are similar to neons in size tho there is some discrepency on how large they get..they are more suited to warmer tanks than the neon and I keep them with my discus(they were cheaper than the cardinals...LOL)

[pharasalia]

Yesterday my 3 remaining neons and glofish were doing really well. The neons were seeming more relaxed and swimming around. The only thing that concerned me in the slightest was the slightly nippy behavior of the glofish... but it wasn't all that often and there was never any damage done to them. I had forgotten yesterday to bring the little net with me to work (I plan on leaving it here for this tank) but I forgot it.. so the glofish only had to spend one more night in there =/

The water chemistry tested at this yesterday afternoon:
pH about 7.6
Ammonia 0.5 ppm
Nitrite 0.25 ppm
Nitrate 5.0 ppm

After that, I did a pwc of about 15%. I added the new water back slowly and it was treated. They seemed absolutely fine at that time... but I was only in the office another 15 min or so after the change because it was at the end of my day.

This morning I come in, and I can only find one neon and the glofish. The neon is on the side of the tank, sort of in a nook created by the filter and a plant and the little bubbler. ... the other 2 neons are missing. I thought, oh no =/ and I looked around for them.. they weren't hiding. I look under the filter and the suction of it pulling up the water has them floating right underneath the intake. As soon as I turned it off, they floated away from it.

This is the tank:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3635102

This is the filter that came with the minibow:
http://www.aquahobby.com/products/e_whispermicro.php

Now, I am reasonably certain that water chemistry did not kill these little guys. I immediately retested and this is what my results are:
pH about 7.6
Ammonia 1.0 ppm
Nitrite <0.25 ppm
Nitrate 5.0 ppm

The ammonia is up.. but then again, there have been 2 little dead neons in there... since whenever they passed sometime after 5:30pm last nite. They have had it as high as this before without detriment. I have looked at the little bodies.. I can't see any fin damage if it was the glofish or some kind of a fight.

So - did my filter kill my neons? Is it likely that the filter is two strong for a 2.5g tank despite it being sold that way... and that the neons got tired out from the current and just died? What signs would have warned me if the filter is too strong?

I have left the filter turned off (have airstone bubbling for aeration) for the moment to give the remaining neon a rest if that is the case... the glofish is a strong swimmer and seems unaffected by any of it. Amazingly enough... it is the smallest of the 3 neons who survived the night. One of the dead ones was nearly the size of the glofish. Since turning the filter off, the neon has been swimming around.. but not really differently... it is around the filter, along the back wall, was out front before... but maybe it is out in other areas a bit more.. its hard to say. There was nothing in the tank before (and they have been in this tank a week as of tomorrow night) that suggested there was an overfiltration issue.. but maybe I'm just too new to recognize it?

So... given the facts... what do you guess killed my neons?

I'm doing another pwc on my shift today and I will be taking the glofish out at 5pm when I leave work. That will leave just the neon in the tank. Once I am sure that conditions are safe I will consider adding in more neons... but only after the tank finishes cycling and this filter is replaced if that is the issue...

Anyone have experience with this filter being too big?

[Rbishop]

With neons being sensitive to stress issues, they could have been weaker than normal, especially with being in a fishy cycle. The filter may have been to much for them to get away from.

IME, that is too much filter for a 2.5 gal tank.

I think it is best to finish your cycle and obtain a smaller filter, but make sure you move the media from one filter over to the new one so you do not have a mini cycle.

[pharasalia]

All the more reason noobs should be encouraged to never buy kits!! That filter came with the 2.5gal as an appropriate size for the 2.5gal. :mad2:

They do make one size smaller filter... and the lfs has another very small plastic filter that you have to put your own media in that should be good for this size (I'm hoping.. its smaller than this current filter thats for sure)... but neither one of those will accept the filter cartridge out of the current filter, which I still have unplugged - the neon seems even more active now.

So what do I do? I can't remove the current filter cartridge without taking out the bacteria.. there is no adjustment on it to minimize the flow... If we are correct and its the filter.. this neon will prolly die overnite if I leave the filter running! And I can't go buy the new filter until after work... See, I work on a barrier island... it will take me a good 45 minutes to get to a petstore from here that has either of the smaller sized filters that I am aware of.

Anyone have a recommendation?

PS.. I am fairly certain this is the problem now.. :mad2: As I was posting this, the neon got near to the airstone and almost had a hard time getting away from it (now the airstone is enclosed and this is not a problem)... so if the airstone is kinda strong for them then that filter definitely had to have been producing enough suction to weaken them/kill them. Maybe I'm wrong but that is what common sense tells me.

[TheMightyQueenPixie]

Do you have a heater?