Rift Lake Salts / Buffers

[echoofformless]

How important is it that I add chemicals to my mbuna tank? I'm running it with crushed coral in the filter and cichlid sand in the substrate. Hardness and pH are a good consistency - pH between 7.8 and 8.2 at all times - GH and KH in the upper registers. I added aquarium salt two weeks ago just because PetsMart sold me some sick fish and I wanted to make sure that I didn't lose any more than I had already lost. Got through it unscathed.

But regarding the salt - the healthy fish don't look any happier with it than they did before I added it.

So is it really necessary? And if so, what are the ingredients of a good formula for mbuna that I could concoct DIY style?

[liv2padl]

if your water is already hard and alkaline, you have no need for Rift Lake 'salts'.

[echoofformless]

Word. I figured as much, Thank you padl.

[reptileguy2727]

I see a big difference between my Lake Malawi cichlids (which all get Proper pH 8.2 and SeaChem Cichlid Lake Salt) and the same types from anywhere else. I have three Lake Malawi tanks (150-peacocks, 55-mbuna, 75-haps) and anytime I get fish they immediately improve coloration, activity, etc. These fish are tough and they don't 'need' the buffers or salts, but the main goal should be to get them to thrive. The best way to do that is simulate their natural environment as best we can. In this case it requires a pH of 8.2 and special cichlid lake salt which simulates the elements in proper proportion to eachother and proper concentration as found in their native lake. The tanks at my work are nice and hard, but as soon as some of the peacocks got in my tank they were breeding. They may do fine in harder water, but they will do even better in truly proper conditions. It will make a difference and it is worth the price of the buffers and salts.

On a separate issue the other big difference is diet. All my cichlids get nothing but New Life Spectrum and it makes a HUGE difference in coloration, health, and growth rate. I highly recommend NLS, buffer, and salt to get the absolute best out of your fish.

[echoofformless]

Sounds pretty sweet, though I'm still skeptical. Only because all of my fish, cichlids or not, always look infinitely healthier and happier once they come home to my tanks. I attribute it more to the fact that I have rigorous filtration, a good schedule of water changes, slight understocking, lots of plants, etc.

I do of course stand often and strongly as an advocate of imitating native conditions (I'm pretty famous for my rants about peat filtration and driftwood for acid-loving species) but I'm not sure I am buying into the rift lake salts notion, because even the fish in my general community tank, which gets no special treatment at all, look far more alive within a few days than they did when I first bring them home.

[reptileguy2727]

At my work there is a 90 that is Lake Malawi, mbunas and haps. That tank is in great condition, pH is at 8.2, NLS, adequate filtration, etc., and the colors on those fish are nto as good as they should. I am at a LFS that in this wonderful world of big business and capitalism is barely able to keep the doors open, let alone add the proper salts. Those fish do not look near as good as any in any of my tanks. It is nto a difference as big as day and night, it is more like day and noon. Africans are naturally colorful and tough, so they don't show stress obviously at all, but there is no doubt in my mind that to really get the best out of them they need that salt. If you support acidic water for soft water lovers, why should these not get what they need as well. When I first started to stock my 150 the first things to go in were some peacocks that had been at my work for a while. They were doing fine at work, but they were holding eggs at my house before I even saw them eat. I don't see them truly thriving without salt and buffer and NLS.

[echoofformless]

It's the salt I'm questioning, not the hardness and pH. With the crushed coral and cichlid sand my hardness is way up there, and my pH is always between 7.8 and 8.2.

My research indicates their is a certain salinity to Malawi water, but what manner of salts and how much to add per gallon is my concern.

One thing I don't believe in is buying overpriced prepackaged products.

So if anyone knows a good cocktail, I am very interested.

[liv2padl]

Lake Malawi has a low total concentrations of ions and an alkalinity usually less than 6 milliequivalents per liter, and conductivity of less than 600 µS (µmho). having a crushed coral substrate along with naturally hard and alkaline water does much to provide what these cichlids need. in my opinion and experience, adding prepackaged 'salts' is simply buying into the marketing hype and contributing to the manufacturers bottom line. when i kept African cichlids, they looked as good as any you'll see, spawned regularly, lived a long and healthy life and never saw a grain of "rift lake salts".

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/rift_lakes.html

[reptileguy2727]

Any homemade concoctions won't have all the trace elements they have naturally. These are the hardest freshwater waters in the world (the rift lakes). The pH is the same as saltwater. I would try and keep the pH up right at 8.2, not 8.2 as the higher end of the variability. The results speak for themselves, higher pH, proper salts, and proper hardness (and proper diet) and they will do better than without any one of these things. There has only been one place where I have seen peacocks as nice as mine and they used salts, buffers, and kept it at the proper pH. I firmly believe that if you kept one tank with crushed coral (which brings pH up to about 7.6) and had hardwater and had another tank setup properly you would see a very noticable difference in the fish. Although it is on SeaChem's website, they do have information concerning an importer who when asked to try the Cichlid Lake Salt, saw amazing improvement in their fish. Keeping Lake Malawi cichlids in a tank with just hard tap water and crushed coral is like keeping discus in a tank with medium hardness tap water, neither are gettign what they have evolved to be in physiologically, and neither will do as good as if they are cared for properly. I have had these types of cichlids before without using the salt and buffers and what not, and I have seen many other tanks that do not use them and that is why I will happily spend my hard earned money on what really makes the difference. If I hadn't tried it both ways and seen a huge difference I woudln't worry about it, but there is a big difference. My tap is hard and holds at about 7.8-8.0 and it still makes a big difference when I use the salts and buffers. (By the way, sand is a MUCH better and more natural substrate for them than crushed coral.)

[echoofformless]

You make a compelling case, but what you neglect to mention is exactly what the ingredients of these prepackaged various rift lake buffers actually are.

Municipal water treatment plants add all manner of varying chemicals and elements to their processed product. Therefore one is left to wonder what might then be present in most tap water already. For example the annual average sodium content from the plant that supplies my water is said to be roughly 16mg/l according to the 2005 report. Lake Malawi is said to be about 21mg/l according to the link posted by liv2padl. That's not much of a difference really.

So between aquarium salt, or a very slight amount of reef salt and a little sodium bicarbonate...why wouldn't one be able to formulate a little cocktail of their own that is fractions the cost of those expensive "rift lake buffers?"

That is if such things are even necessary at all. And no, I am not one to question the validity of imitating as closely as possible the natural environment of your fish. (I post in strong advocacy of blackwater systems ad nauseam.) But the idea of these specialty rift lake salts just kind of rubs me the wrong way. I'm just fairly certain that one can formulate something just as effective for far less money. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the stuff in those jars was nothing more than some marine salt and sodium bicarbonate. After all, Tetra sells a "blackwater extract" for a few dollars a bottle. Why I would spend the money on that, which might keep one tank artificially blackwatered for a few months, when for the same price I can get a whole bale of sphagnum peat that will treat all of my tanks more naturally and more effectively for a few years is just beyond me.

[jm1212]

salt does not have a place in freshwater tanks. there are many other ways to raise the pH and hardness than to just add salt. adding rockwork is a great example, and adding more caves via rockwork is a great way to keep aggression down in African Cichlid tanks. you can also add crushed coral to either the filter or as the substrate, or both.

[echoofformless]

Oh absolutely, but what is in question here is not pH, hardness, etc...it's other chemicals and elements. I stand dead set against salt in freshwater tanks, but if there are certain trace elements and minute amounts of varying types of salts found in Lake Malawi, I would very much want to introduce them to my tank the same I use peat filtration in my blackwater setups.

[number1sixerfan]

As stated previously, salt is present in Lake Malawi. Granted it is not anywhere near as much as a saltwater lake or ocean, it is still present. Therefore it doesn't make much sense to completely deny the use of salt.

The important thing is to test your tap water before you add any types of additives. My water out of the tap has a ph of 7.4. That is not high enough for most mbuna so I add marineland ocean salt and seachem's cichlid buffer to keep it where I want it. Having a stable ph is much more important than a high ph.

Cichlids can adapt to most water conditions, but an unstable ph will not do them any good. They can thrive without any salts, however mine have colored up a little better since the addition of salt. This could possibly be because they are more comfortable than before. However, if you don't want to use salt, you don't have to. To each his own...

[liv2padl]

an important point missed so far is the fact that probably 95 percent of the African Cichlids in the hobby today are farm bred in florida ponds and have been for over 20 years. do you think these fish farms use Rift Lake salt in their ponds? of course not. it wouldn't make sense economically.

the African cichlids in the hobby today are thus hundreds of generations removed from the chemistry of their native waters. they are therefor not genetically predisposed to require it nor 'do better' in it.

you may get a psychological benefit from using Seachems powders and elixirs but your fish do not.

[jm1212]

As stated previously, salt is present in Lake Malawi. Granted it is not anywhere near as much as a saltwater lake or ocean, it is still present. Therefore it doesn't make much sense to completely deny the use of salt.

The important thing is to test your tap water before you add any types of additives. My water out of the tap has a ph of 7.4. That is not high enough for most mbuna so I add marineland ocean salt and seachem's cichlid buffer to keep it where I want it. Having a stable ph is much more important than a high ph.

Cichlids can adapt to most water conditions, but an unstable ph will not do them any good. They can thrive without any salts, however mine have colored up a little better since the addition of salt. This could possibly be because they are more comfortable than before. However, if you don't want to use salt, you don't have to. To each his own... there is some concentration of salt in all water

there is even salt in the Amaozon river. it is an outrageous decimal per gallon (about 1 grain per 1,000,000 gallons) but it is still there.

most africans you will find in stores dont even know what their "natural" environment looks like. if your water is staable and constant, most fish can adapt to most pHs, GHs, and KHs.

[reptileguy2727]

Many rift lake cichlids are still WC, or only a few generatiosn short of it. The others may be decades from the lake, but they doesn't undo the hundreds of thousands of years of evolution that made them genetically fit for a high pH, hard water, certain dissolved solids (salts) environment. With that same idea, I might as well keep discus in ym tap water, after all they are many generations from the amazon, so it won't make a difference.

SeaChem's Cichlid Lake Salt has the following composition per gram:
Calcium:3.24-3.5%, Magnesium: (min) 11.83%, Potassium: (min)10.08%, Sodium: 3.53-3.75%, Aluminum: (min)0.9mg, Iodine: (min)0.02mg, Iron: (min)0.2mg

Ingredients: magnesium chloride, calcium chloride, potassium sulfate, sodium chloride, aluminum sulfate, iron sulfate, potassium iodide

The use of salt in African rift lakes is not to raise pH but to simulate the exact natural environment these fish have evolved to over hundreds of thousands of years. This cannot be undone with a few decades of captive breeding. Applying a 'rule' of thumb such as no salt in a freshwater tank is overlooking some of the most basic needs of these fish. In general salt should not be used in all freshwater tanks, it will do more harm than good in the long run and should be reserved for times of stress (arguably), but there are a few exceptions and African rift lake cichlids are the biggest one. Unfortunately for them they are tough as nails and can make do in water that is not ideal, even breeding in such conditions. But from my experience in order to truly get the best colors out of these fish (which for most of us is the main reason we get these beauties) the salt, buffer, and NLS food will combine to make a big difference. So if you want them to do fine, do what you want, but if you want to sit down in front of your tank and go, "Whoa, I didn't know they could be that colorful," go with the previously mentioned combination.

[echoofformless]

Many rift lake cichlids are still WC, or only a few generatiosn short of it. The others may be decades from the lake, but they doesn't undo the hundreds of thousands of years of evolution that made them genetically fit for a high pH, hard water, certain dissolved solids (salts) environment.

Personally I agree with this very much. And as I always say, the same goes for all freshwater fish. Anyone who has seen an angel in blackwater conditions will tell you the same.


But that still doesn't sell me on commercially marketed rift lake buffers. Like I said, I don't buy blackwater extract; I use plain old garden peat.

[liv2padl]

I might as well keep discus in ym tap water, after all they are many generations from the amazon, so it won't make a difference.

well, as a matter of fact ... While i've never kept Discus or angels, I know of a fellow ACA member in Sacramento that raises Discus -- some 80 breeding pairs, that he keeps in water which is generally 8.0+. He did a number of experiments many years ago, moving pairs from one pH to another (i.e., 6.8 to 7.6 then to 8.0) to determine viability, tolerances, etc. His fish continued to spawn; albeit with a differing hatch rate, but they continued to perform. He also did the same with temperature tolerances and breeding, though I don't recall the numbers there, except to say that he kept his fish lower than what the books call for, and they bred with regularity.

I read of an Angel and Discus breeder in Los Angeles who did not treat his water (ph a minimum of 7.8, with an average of 8.1 pH), but kept the building at 80°+, ran a drip irrigation method which changed 250% of the water daily on his fish, and he fed extremely well; he had between 15,000-20,000 angel fry a week going and a couple of hundred discus fry.

Since few Discus are 'wild caught' anymore, and what is out in the hobby has
acclimated itself to what 'is', you can see significant variation in ranges for fish. Same goes for the 'angel'. The 'scalare' are fairly adaptable, only not succeeding at real extremes, while the newer 'altum' angels require attention to detail in their environment.

It appears that the major driving force in being able to breed most cichlids, including those such as discus or angels, which are "known to be temperamental", in any water is the water quality (lots of water changes/reduced nitrate/nitrite issues) and lots of food. Translate all that to good care.

So, keeping 'soft water' cichlids in other than 'Amazonian water' can happen, and does, with more success than some would anticipate. To be sure, there are probably as many fish that cannot be spawned in other than their 'native' water chemistry as those that can ... but that number is decreasing every year.


SeaChem's Cichlid Lake Salt has the following composition per gram:
Calcium:3.24-3.5%, Magnesium: (min) 11.83%, Potassium: (min)10.08%, Sodium: 3.53-3.75%, Aluminum: (min)0.9mg, Iodine: (min)0.02mg, Iron: (min)0.2mg well, there's a problem then, since while i respect the name and products of Seachem, the make up of their Rift Lake salts in no way duplicates the chemistry of Lake Malawi. rather, it seems generalized for the "lakes" and leans heavily toward Lake Tanganyikan chemistry.


Water Chemistry of L. Malawi
Electrical conductivity (µS = µmho) 210-220
Total solids (mg/L) 76-118
Sum of cations (meq/L) 2.45
Sum of anions (meq/L) 2.5-2.59
pH 8.5-8.6
Na (sodium) (mg/L) 21.0
K (potassium) (mg/L) 6.4
Ca (calcium) (mg/L) 16.4-19.8
Mg (magnesium) (mg/L) 4.7-8.8
HCO3 + CO3 (bicarbonate,carbonate) (meq/L) 2.36-2.58
Cl (chloride) (mg/L) 3.57-4.3
SO4 (sulfate) (mg/L) 5.5
SiO2 (dissolved silica) (mg/L) 1.1-4 NO3 ·
N (nitrate-nitrogen) (µg/L) below detection limit
PO4 · P (phosphate) (µg/L) <7-30

[reptileguy2727]

I couldn't find info on exact numbers and concentrations for the different minerals in either of my Lake Malawi cichlids books.

On the Cichlid Lake Salt container though they have a graph showing the four major mineral levels found in Lake Tanganyika and in the product, and they match up almost exactly.

Now that I realise that I will email SeaChem to see why their product is not based on the lake from which almost all the rift lake cichlids in the hobby originate from.

If you can come up with something that does properly simulate the mineral composition of Lake Malawi, let me/us know.

[jm1212]

i keep my angels and other "soft" water fish in a pH of 8.0. i have yet to see any ill effects.

[reptileguy2727]

A lot of these fish are tough, many much tougher than popularly thought. So with some of these it is not a matter of life or death, but of best health, growth, color, etc. They may not be doing bad, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't do better if they were in better conditions.

[number1sixerfan]

As said in the above post, it should not matter if the fish is able to survive water conditions other than the wild. I personally believe that we as hobbyist should try to replicate their natural conditions.

As I said before, you do not have to do this. Fish can still live normally without the addition of trace elements and salt. However, to say that these ingredients have no merit at all is nothing more than a misinformed opinion.

[eyeman]

My tap water has a GH of 1 and a KH of 1...PH 6.8 So you will have to adjust this recipe to your water:

For each 5 gallons I add 1.5 tsp Epsom Salt - 1.5 tsp Baking Soda - 1 tsp Marine Salt mix.

Works for me and many breaders/experts at cichlid-forum.com

[Amphiprion]

SeaChem's Cichlid Lake Salt has the following composition per gram:
Calcium:3.24-3.5%, Magnesium: (min) 11.83%, Potassium: (min)10.08%, Sodium: 3.53-3.75%, Aluminum: (min)0.9mg, Iodine: (min)0.02mg, Iron: (min)0.2mg

Ingredients: magnesium chloride, calcium chloride, potassium sulfate, sodium chloride, aluminum sulfate, iron sulfate, potassium iodide



This is pretty much what I was looking for, too. It should be easy calculating this by mass to make your own. I shouldn't have to do much else except add some sodium bicarbonate to raise the KH.

[eyeman]

This is pretty much what I was looking for, too. It should be easy calculating this by mass to make your own. I shouldn't have to do much else except add some sodium bicarbonate to raise the KH.

Seems like too much work. Read these two articles:

http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/aquarium_salts.php

http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php