Angelfish death

[laka]

I have just set up a heavily planted 180g tank.
I bought 4 veil tail angels. One was hovering on surface breathing heavily.
Ammonia nitrites 0ppm nitrates 8ppm pH 7.2 No visible signs of ich. I have very little surface agitation to prevent CO2 loss. Thought maybe O2 deficiency but no other fish displayed simmilar behavior. Any suggestions? Is this breed prone to sudden death?
LAKA

[jm1212]

how much CO2 are you putting in the tank? are you sure the pants are using it all up?

[laka]

This is a low tec planted tank. ie. no added CO2. I no for a fact using my drop checker CO2 is less than 10ppm
LAKA

[sreid]

Sorry to hear about your fish

[Marinemom]

Sorry for your loss. Angels can be sensitive to poor water conditions. What is your water change schedule like? It is also possible that you just may of recieved an angel from a bad batch. How long did you have it? It may of been sick when you purchased it.

Marinemom

[wataugachicken]

What is the temp of the tank? How did you acclimate them? Were there any sick or listless angels in the tank with them at the store?

This is probably *NOT* an issue, but some (very stupid) LFS's sometimes put angels in brackish water (monos go in brackish, angels look like long-finned monos, therefore angels go in the brackish tank too). Is that a possibility?

[jm1212]

how much are you filtering the tank? is it adequate?

[Aussie_hippie_2]

Many LFS angels are very weak. It sounds like you just got one that had gone through too much stress, was allready sick, etc.

[laka]

thank you for all the replies guys.
I think i have found the cause. After the first death the other veil tail angelfish began breathing at the surface as well. I then immediately suspected oxygen starvation. I had very little surface agitation in the tank to reduce CO2 loss. I immediately placed a powerhead to increase surface agitation and the angels seem more comfortable for the time being.
This tank is heavily planted and i do not intend doing any water changes whatsoever. Only top ups from evaporation.
I also have no biological, chemical filtration. Only mechanical in the form of powerhead with sponge.
I know this is a large paradigm shift in fish husbandry. I had large guapote cichlids in this tank before going planted for 10 years and just got sick and tired of water changes.
As stated before all the water parameters are normal and DOC's are scooped up by plant metabolism. My water temp. is about 26 degrees celcius due to the metal halide lights.
Finally i have a beautifully planted tank with hopefully happy healthy fish now and the only maintenance required is feeding fish fertilising plants and npruning and no water changes!
LAKA
LAKA

[jm1212]

thank you for all the replies guys.
I think i have found the cause. After the first death the other veil tail angelfish began breathing at the surface as well. I then immediately suspected oxygen starvation. I had very little surface agitation in the tank to reduce CO2 loss. I immediately placed a powerhead to increase surface agitation and the angels seem more comfortable for the time being.
This tank is heavily planted and i do not intend doing any water changes whatsoever. Only top ups from evaporation.
I also have no biological, chemical filtration. Only mechanical in the form of powerhead with sponge.
I know this is a large paradigm shift in fish husbandry. I had large guapote cichlids in this tank before going planted for 10 years and just got sick and tired of water changes.
As stated before all the water parameters are normal and DOC's are scooped up by plant metabolism. My water temp. is about 26 degrees celcius due to the metal halide lights.
Finally i have a beautifully planted tank with hopefully happy healthy fish now and the only maintenance required is feeding fish fertilising plants and npruning and no water changes!
LAKA
LAKA
you need to do water changes on your tank. nobody likes to do them (well some of us might ;)), but you have to for the overall health of the system, especially the health of the fish, so its best to start up again. it replaces essential minerals that the fish need.

if your perameters were perfect and all of the DOAs were taken up by the plants, the angel would probably not have died; but because it did, there is most likely an excess of either ammoina, nirites, or nitrates.

you need to get a REAL filter to provide biological and mechanical filtration, and perhaps a little gas off for the fish, not just a powerhead for water movement.

the ferts you are adding are probably causing a problem also. if you are not doing water changes, ADDING more nitrates and phosphates to the water si only going to amke it spiral downhill.


your tank would also be fine without any fish at all.

[laka]

Hello jm1212
I agree with you that this can be a planted tank only.
I am also reasonably confident that my fish are not stressed from lack of water changes. My Lamotte test kits show ammonia and nitrites 0ppm phosphates 0.5ppm nitrates 6-8 ppm and my electronic pH meter 6.8 before lights on and 7.5 after lights out. I NEED to dose nitrates using KNO3 because otherwise i have absolutely no nitrates in the tank which means my plants are starving.
As to biological filtration this is actually what i do not want. Plants utilise ammonium/ammonia as their N source. It is scooped up before i can even get to measure it. If i used biological filtration then the aerobic bacteria will be competing with my plants for the N source and this is not what i want.
As i said i realise this is a big shift in thinking but ir ther there is something in my water that is poisoning my fish i certainly cannot detect and measure it with any known test kits. I still feel it was O2 starvation. Remember this tank is very lightly stocked.The body mass of all my fish would not even reach that of one full size oscar.
I guess time will tell.
LAKA

[wataugachicken]

aside from nitrates (which will mostly be taken up by your plants), tank water gets loaded with hormones and other biological wastes from the fish, and metals and other dissolved solids from tap water. If you only top off the tank, all those things build up, and the plants don't use them all. You have to do water changes to remove those things. As noted above, water changes add things to the tank that are taken out by the fish and plants.

Even in nature there is always a constant turnover of water, with old being diluted by new (streams, rain) and built-up toxins are flushed out. When you see a stinky stagnant pond covered in algae, that's what happens in nature when there is no water turnover.

Even so, if you want this idea to work you should choose fish more suited to those conditions. Any kind of air-breathing fish, or hardy ones like guppies, endlers, etc. would do well in the case that water conditions take a turn for the worse.

How much research have you done on this? If you're not adding CO2, your plants will probably start to die. Fish only produce so much, and plants need more than what they can get for fish. With no surface agitation for air exchange, that means no CO2 is coming into tank, let alone going out. Since you're not doing water changes, excess nutrients will build up in the tank. You would think (me too!) that the plants would use them all up. However, without added CO2, they can only take up a certain amount, say maybe 2/3 of them (random number, but still works to prove the point). Those leftover nutrients, too much for the plants, now become bait for algae. It doesn't need CO2, just light, and those metal halides will be a grand buffet for pretty much any type that finds a way into your tank. Then what will you do?

[jgavlock]

I think angels are a terrible choice of fish if you don't plan on doing any water changes. They are extremely sensitive fish. I lost three juveniles in a tank with perfect parameters and 25% water changes twice a week until I finally had one survive who is now thriving and pushing 3-4 inches long.

[wataugachicken]

Acutally, even if you did run a filter or two on the tank, the plants get first choice of the nitrogen products put out by the fish. If they truly are taking out as much as you say, there won't be much bacterial growth at all. This is why we advise against cycling with plants in the tank - once/if the plants die or are taken out, there aren't enough bacteria left and a mini-cycle will occur.

[laka]

Some interesting thoughts you have shared with me wataugachicken.
This tank of mine is not an experiment that i decided one day to do. I have referenced ie. read twice Diana Walstead's book on planted ecology in aquariums and have been on plant forums for 3/12 before setting up this tank. Diana actually advises doing 10% water changes monthly.
Plant gurus have actually advised me against doing water changes in a low tec planted set up with a low fish population.
Yes my TDS with time will probably rise. I may even have to do some water changes. I will consider this if i encounter problems but if it ain't broke why fix it? As i said time will tell.
Angelfish are more sensitive than other fish. Point taken. My other fish inhabitants seem to be doing fine for now. Angefish by nature are soft water fish.This may go aginst my no water change philosophy.
I do not add CO2 to my tank the plants are pearling and my ferilisers are being consumed. The uptake rate is obvoiously much slower than a CO2 injected tank but i dose accordingly.
As i side note i had a 120g low tec planted tank some years ago that i had running for 6/12 before i decided to strip it down. I got sick of pruning the plants and running two other tanks at the same time. No fish death with that tank, but there were no angels in it, and i did do 10% monthly water changes then.
LAKA

[Star_Rider]

you may have just had a run of poor quality angels.
domestic angels are actually quite hardy...I wouldn't cycle a tank using them but they are fairly adaptable to many water conditions.
however, in this case you may have more of an issue with 'stagnate' water by limiting the water changes. in this respect I would not suggest angels.

I have done some reading on DWalstad and find it quite interesting.

I have a 'low' tech tank set up with angels but this tank does get water changes weekly. btw this tank is set up with wild scalare(peruvian) it is an experimantal tank with only 15 watt light ans thre rest of the light provided via sunlight. it being winter the growth has slowed in the tank..but during the sunny months the tank has to be pruned weeklt..I do not add fertilizers nor do I add co2.
the book is still out on this.