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Discus breeders in and around Virginia?

Discussion in 'Angel Fish & Discus' started by Lillyan, Jan 1, 2012.

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  1. Lillyan

    Lillyan AC Members

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    I'm wondering first off, if there are any Discus breeders in Virginia? Second, any near by or fellow forum members that have them?
    I am thinking of getting some and eventually breeding a few.
    Please do not mention Discus Hans, I know he is the best, I'm still wanting to know of fellow hobbyists.
    I am not looking to buy any now, as shipping is crazy and individual fish are also way too costly for me now.
    On CL there was a guy in Manassas, VA who has them. I think I've seen his ad 6mo+ ago.
     
  2. Merlot

    Merlot AC Members

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    Hi Lilysn - I'm in the same boat as you. I saw the ad on CG and contacted the gentleman. He had new pictures posted. The fish seem healthy and well shaped,but I am new to Discus and have not seen them. I do not know who the parents of his fish are - meaning what type or where they are from. I asked what water parameters he has his tanks at but have yet to hear from him.
     
  3. reptileguy2727

    reptileguy2727 Not enough tanks, space, or time

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    I wouldn't go through a breeder. Their fish are not as hardy. I would go through a local shop. If they can make it through a farm, wholesaler, and retailer then they are good to go.
     
  4. Lillyan

    Lillyan AC Members

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    Why is it that for all other fish a breeder is best and you get scolded for using a store, but Discus is either Hans and the like or a store?
    They say support your fellow hobbyiest, but not for this fish?

    I would think if they can breed in a random persons tank, then another random person's tank wouldn't be a huge jump.
     
  5. reptileguy2727

    reptileguy2727 Not enough tanks, space, or time

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    The problem is that most discus breeders are not random people. They obsess over them. Most have ridiculous water change schedules (I have heard 80% every other day, 90% daily, and even some do 100% where the discus are laying on their side). This means that when those discus end up in a tank that gets a more normal water change schedule they do not do as well.

    Discus breeders don't select for health and hardiness. They select for color, conformation, etc. They may say that they select for both, but it is impossible to select for both health/hardiness and anything else. This means that the resulting stock lose health/hardiness. I have seen it over and over and over again with clients and customers.

    The problem is that different people have different ideas about what is ideal. I consider ideal to be healthy fish that thrive and that look good to me. Discus breeders (and breeders of any other animal with various breeds) have made up arbitrary standards about what is 'desirable'. When you select for these arbitrarily 'desirable' traits instead of selecting only on health/hardiness you WILL lose health/hardiness.

    Pure Breeds are not Ideal
     
  6. Lillyan

    Lillyan AC Members

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    Hm, guess I forgot about that. I knew that from 'backyard breeders' of dogs, cats and the like.
    I found a store in Alexandria, VA that has them. They are almost 2hrs from me, hope they don't sell out after I call to check before I drive up there, lol.
    Do they tend to sell fast in lfs??
     
  7. reptileguy2727

    reptileguy2727 Not enough tanks, space, or time

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    I wouldn't call them backyard breeders, and the problem isn't unique to backyard breeders. The problem is real ANY time you select for ANYTHING other than health/hardiness. The best dog breeder in the world is still causing the exact same problems. Maybe they are okay for the generations they have produced so far, but what they are doing is causing harm for the overall health of the breed. The same is true of goldfish. The high end ones are super sensitive. I have heard the same thing of guppies, bettas, on and on. When you select for color, shape, size, etc. you are breeding in spite of health/hardiness instead of for it.

    Which shop?

    How fast they sell depends on a lot of things. Their traffic, how many they have, their pricing, size, color, etc. I would ask how many they have, how long they have had them, what all they are eating, etc. You can also ask them how fast they sell. They may not be completely honest and just try to get you in, but it won't hurt to ask.
     
  8. msjinkzd

    msjinkzd AC Members

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    i cannot disagree more, and if you had ever talked to some of the most serious breeders, youw ould know this is not true. not to mention, many of those large scale breeders are WHO supply the stores.

    If you have ever attended one of hans talks, you would know he uses tapwater, feeds a realistic diet, and says that temp and clean water is all you need for succesful discus.

    If I were you, I would do research on good conformation, on how to tell if a discus is a healthy weight, etc. While it may not MATTER if the discus is show conformation, if you want to breed them, you will want to be able to sell them.


    I am not trying to push Hans, by any means, but he is this kind of guy that can give you real, concrete information on care and is happy to answer emails with help . Is a store a few hours away going to be willing to do that? Also, will a store have been feeding them? Often they do not, certainly not the amount a discus with ahigh metabolism from warm temps would need.

    I would never buy store discus without knowing their source. There is a lot of crap out there. Stores often buy smaller (cheaper) and then don't rear them as they should be. I wouldn't want a footballed undersized discus to start a breeding project with unless your goal is to keep them all and just experience their breedign behavior.

    That being said, I have a buddy in NJ who breeds some beautiful discus, in his house, only a few tanks.

    Here is a pic of a pair I got from him:
    female discus.jpg
    discus male.jpg
     
  9. Rbishop

    Rbishop The glistening drop....
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    Agree, Rach. A lot of stores down here have the cull quality of so called large scale breeders.
     
  10. Lillyan

    Lillyan AC Members

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    pristine aquariums
     
  11. SubRosa

    SubRosa Banned

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    You presuppose that it's not possible to select for more than one trait at a time. 100% incorrect. You presuppose that color, conformation whatever are automatically at odds with hardiness, suitability for captivity, whatever. 100% incorrect as well. Colorful Discus are much easier to breed than their wild progenitors, so obviously while selecting for color breeders were selecting for ease of breeding as well.
     
  12. yss

    yss AC Members

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    If you are serious about keeping discus, you need to go to a reputable breeder/dealer. There are some exceptions out there, but buying discus from an LFS is a huge gamble. Contrary to what was posted here, LFS discus do not compare in quality and health to discus from reputable breeders/dealers. Breeding discus and raising discus fry successfully is not easy. That's why you don't see too many hobbyists selling discus fry they bred. Getting discus to spawn is easy, but after that, it's a lot work.
     
  13. fishorama

    fishorama AC Members

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    I agree with Rachel too. I have rarely seen what I'd call healthy or quality discus in a store (even Hans etc discus) except maybe a few in a display tank. Learn what qualities to look for in terms of health & appearance, sick, stunted fish are not fun. And be prepared for a lot of work raising them up from the "affordable" sizes, 2-4 inches.

    Look at hobby & pro breeders at sites like http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forum.php & importers like Hans & Kenny. Take your time to find good fish.
     
  14. reptileguy2727

    reptileguy2727 Not enough tanks, space, or time

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    They may not compare in 'quality' (the definition of which is made up), but they are hardier/healthier.

    Sorry, you can select for more than one trait at a time, but by doing so you cut down the gene pool much more mush sooner, which is much worse long term. 'We can select for quality and health at the same time' is the same line breeders of any animal are regurgitating and fooling themselves with. Any outside observer can see that from a biological point of view selecting for arbitrary traits like color or conformation is bad news, or maybe the scientists I had for professors are just crazy.

    Which will be healthier/hardier: a discus that is pampered in a breeder's tanks who gets an obsessive water change schedule and needs 50%+ protein to grow 'properly' or one that was born and raised on a farm, shipped to a wholesaler, survived, shipped to a local shop, survived, settled in, started eating, and still looks good? Which will do better when life happens and water changes are not the top priority of the week?

    I have dealt with both and the ones from local shops are hardier and much more forgiving, especially for people new to discus. When the breeders I have talked to have to have buckets of meds on hand because even under their pristine care they are still so prone to illnesses on a regular basis, I don't have faith in the health or hardiness of the ones from a breeder.
     
  15. Rbishop

    Rbishop The glistening drop....
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    Disagree completely.
     
  16. yss

    yss AC Members

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    Sorry, but your logic is completely flawed. Not sure how many years of experience you have keeping variety of discus, but I have kept discus for many years, and based on my personal experiences and based on many others who kept discus for a long time, healthier and hardier discus are pampered discus that are well fed and in tip top shape because of good care. Have you seen most of discus at LFS? I would not want to touch over 90% of discus at LFS. Most LFS do not know how to care for discus and can't provide good care due to extra care discus require. They may arrive at the LFS as healthy discus, but the longer they stay at the LFS, the worse the condition. Don't get me wrong. I have bought discus from LFS, but only from the ones that I knew where they got the fish from and that they knew how to care for discus once they arrive.
     
  17. msjinkzd

    msjinkzd AC Members

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    so you are suggesting ugly fish that have been neglected (as in not taken care of for the accepted norm for the breed) are inherently a better purchase for a first time discus buyer and overall are healthier?

    Have you ever BOUGHT good quality discus? Or do you just know from working at a pet shop

    Your advise is absolutely counter intuitive to me and seems more like a way for you to link to your articles then based in fact other than your perceived truths.


    Back on track for the OP:
    You might try posting at www.capitalcichlids.org, a local cichlid club in the NOVA area (I am a member there, as is Hans, and as are MANY knowledge people) to see if anyone is selling discus. I know we have several members keepign and attempting to spawn.
     
  18. reptileguy2727

    reptileguy2727 Not enough tanks, space, or time

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    It is what I have seen over and over and I want people new to discus to understand that.

    I honestly don't know where most of you got your impression of discus at local shops. If they were that bad it is good you didn't buy. But a good local shop will have healthy discus. At the one I work at we go and hand pick every fish that comes in to our shop. I can see how other shops end up with bad discus because I see how bad they look sometimes. But a shop that cares will take proper care of all of their fish. Obviously I am not encouraging people to go out and support shops that do not take proper care of their fish. I am also not suggesting anyone blindly buy whatever horrible discus they may have. I am saying that in my experience I would rather go through a shop.

    As stated, it is blatantly obvious to my professors that selection by humans based on made up standards is of no benefit to the animals. We see the undeniably horrible results in so many breeds of dogs, some worse than others. The same results appear in animals of other types.

    Obviously people who like the idea of 'high quality' animals will continue purchasing them, so there is no convincing. I think my point is clear and anyone willing to think about it and step outside the mindset may see it as well.
     
  19. Merlot

    Merlot AC Members

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    I went to their store the other day. They have German and Vietnamese Discus. They told me they will be getting in a new shipment this first week of January...
     
  20. Slug

    Slug Registered Member

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    Reptileguy you couldn't be more wrong about Discus, or any fish for that matter. Never have I seen such bad advice on the species (Let alone general fish care) in my 10-15 years keeping them. You say you are "Owner: Aquarium Maintenance and Pet Care company"...you wouldn't touch my tanks with a 10ft pole. Although with your logic you could go 5 months without touching them and it will only make the fish stronger.

    OP, go to a breeder, hands down. No question about it. You will get more for your money in terms of health and quality of the fish. Start with healthy fish and you will have an easier time as they grow.

    All of my fish came from a private breeder, they must be total crap and will probably drop dead any day now because I do water changes multiple times per week...:rofl:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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