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Euthanasia-discussion thread

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by jpappy789, Apr 1, 2008.

  1. jpappy789

    jpappy789 Plants need meat too

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    Euthanasia-discussion thread
    Article found here:
    http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums...d.php?t=148361

    Very well written! Of course there will be controversy but its nice for someone to put out the actual methods out there to be used, hopefully never though...thanks ct!
     
    #1 jpappy789, Apr 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2008
  2. kimbo3311

    kimbo3311 Red-Headed, Non-Step-Child

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    OK, this was well written, and I do agree that there are ethically good ways and ethically bad ways to kill a fish. I also agree with the listing here. clove oil is very effective, and you can easily overdose them to kill them. My only problem with this article is the statement that it is a myth that fish do not feel pain. Yes they have stress responses, but so do many invertebrates. Fish do not have the necissary part of their brain to interpret pain. they do have sensory cells, and yes, they can be "trained" but they are physiologically unable to "feel" pain.

    This of course does NOT mean that fish are not worthy of proper, ethical treatment. They should be taken care of just like any other animal, and cruel treatment is never justified.
     
  3. ct-death

    ct-death Fish & Visitors Smell in 3 Days...

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    First off thank you for your time to comment and offer your thoughts. I certainly encourage an open dialog as I know this is a "touchy" subject.

    However, as to the idea of pain I would like to offer this for discussion --

    "Definition of Pain


    Pain: An unpleasant sensation that can range from mild, localized discomfort to agony. Pain has both physical and emotional components. The physical part of pain results from nerve stimulation. Pain may be contained to a discrete area, as in an injury, or it can be more diffuse, as in disorders like fibromyalgia. Pain is mediated by specific nerve fibers that carry the pain impulses to the brain where their conscious appreciation may be modified by many factors.
    "
    - MedicineNet.com

    I tried very hard to see if this "Myth" was credible, but based on science,
    Pain is literally the conscious reaction of the brain to firing nerve endings as a result of
    some undesirable (or even potentially unwanted) environmental stimuli

    Simply, Pain is experienced by the brain in a process termed nociception. This is the detection of a stimulus by a pain receptor, and transmission of the information to the brain via nerves.

    Traditionally, Pain may be experienced in response to ...

    - Stimulation of a Pain receptor (nociceptor), which can be caused by any number of stimuli such as: chemical, heat or from some physical effect beyond a tolerance level.- Actual damage to a pain nerve
    - Brain Damage interupting this pathway


    I'll end with this, and I think this is what defines your point Kimbo (please correct em if I'm wrong!)...

    It's the idea that in order for Pain to exist, you must have a sentient life with a consciousness vs the simple presence of the nervous pathways and physiological responses associated with pain.

    As a result, I often ran into this:

    "In order to show that a fish experiences pain, it is necessary to show that a fish has consciousness.
    Without consciousness, there is no pain.
    "
    - Dr. James D. Rose, Ph.D., Univ. of Wyoming (a critic of fish sensations)

    Please feel free to share your information.

    Thanks
     
    #3 ct-death, Apr 6, 2008
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2008
  4. bigedv3

    bigedv3 AC Members

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    so is one supposed to set the doomed fish on the unbroken "ice surface" or break through and try to get the fish into the water under the top layer of ice?
     
  5. TKOS

    TKOS Registered User of Fish

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    I would also add that while your reasons for "not euthanizing" a fish are admirable they are not always the case. Often people mistakenly buy the wrong fish (balas, ID Sharks, pacus) simply because they are misinformed. It can be very difficult to find a new home for extremely large fish. Ideally the person would not buy a wrong fish but it surely does happen. And there are just as well other times where a fish can't be given away. Just because I can't care for my fish I wouldn't just give it away to anyone who asked for it.

    I would suggest this is the only controversial part of the article. The choice of euthanasia is up to the ethical beliefs of the owner.
     
  6. ct-death

    ct-death Fish & Visitors Smell in 3 Days...

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    In the water, as the ice is broken up. Essentially, the ice is only used as a visual to determine if the water itself is ready for this purpose.
     
  7. ct-death

    ct-death Fish & Visitors Smell in 3 Days...

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    Although I may wish it were not the case, but you are very correct. I did not include this purposefully, however, becaue I did not want to introduce anymore "gray-areas" than necessary.

    I would like to think that as one makes a poorly informed decision - albiet from "expert" guidance from your LFS - that you will soon realize the mistake and the LFS should feel an obligation to correct the issue. I know that here locally this is often (but not always) the case.

    Secondly, I did not want to offer an easy "out", and I realize that this was not your point; But I feel strongly that every effort should be made to find a suitable home for any unwanted pet - As a last resort...yes.

    Just to muddy the waters and stimulate conversation:
    If I bought a St. Bernard and lived in a small Studio, later realized my mistake, I do not think anyone would condone any method of Euthanization...
     
  8. msjinkzd

    msjinkzd AC Members

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    Lets not turn this into a debate. Please keep comments so that they are relevant and helpful to the article or they will be removed. This is supposed to provide information that is helpful and relevant to fishkeepers, not turn into a moral or ethical debate. Ideally one would research any fish before purchase.
     
  9. dent20

    dent20 AC Members

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    The ethical ways you mention are a bit complicated and in my opinion have more potential for things to go wrong. I had to put down a female rainbow cichlid today after a few weeks of watching her sore grow to an enormous size. It was big and deep. I hated doing it, but I wrapped her in a paper towel and used the smash method. One quick blow and it was over. Was it fun for me? No, and I dread the thought of ever having to do it again! But I would contend that it makes more sense than putting a frightened fish through even more turmoil by moving it around a bunch. I decided if I'm going to keep fish it's something I have to be willing to do when the situation warrants it.
     
  10. anaerobe

    anaerobe Neppy4evrrr

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    Fish are conscious creatures. There is no question about it. They are living, breathing just like you and me.

    My bettas and plecos recognize me. My other fish (platies, danios) don't, but it's probably because they don't care to (and that's quite alright). I had 2 fiddle crabs - completely different personalities. I had 2 tiny ADF frogs, they both flinch at pain (I had to move them around between tanks).

    All in all, I believe there is no question that fish (and other aquatics) are conscious, whether true or not. Leave the scientifically proven alone, because it is pretty much impossible to PROVE that even you and me are conscious. In my opinion, just knowing that they have a nervous system is enough to say they do feel pain.

    I was also thinking back to my Human Physiology labs, one of which we were poking earthworms to measure muscle movements. They flinch at the smallest poke. Poor guys. Yes, even earthworms feel pain. You need to be able to feel pain to survive in this world.
     

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