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Suspicious nodules INSIDE of oranda headgrowth

Discussion in 'General Cold & Temperate Water' started by Inka4040, Sep 2, 2011.

  1. Inka4040

    Inka4040 O_o

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    I get that this should be in coldwater illness, but since that forum gets a fat load no attention, I'd really appreciate it if the mods could leave it out in the general section for a while before banishing it there to die.

    I recently saw that there appears to be some growths showing inside of my kirn oranda's wen. To be honest, I didn't notice these things until yesterday, so I'm not sure how long they've been there or how much they've grown, but they seem to be distinctly different from the regular white wen pimples that can show up in hooded goldfish. As far as params go, ammo and trite readings at 0, and trates rarely have a chance to get up to 5ppm, with my daily 50 to 75% water changes. Haven't checked kh or gh readings from the tank, but my water is generally very soft and without buffering capacity right out of the tap. Not sure if this has any bearing on the issue, but only 1 fish is showing these sort of growths, and all are still eating well, swimming actively, and pooping normally. Hopefully this is enough background info.

    On to the nodules. At this point, I can see three. They are all along the lower jaw line/gillplate area of the fish on one side, and appear to be a creamy yellow color with small red veins emanating from them. Like I said, they are distinctly different from the regular wen pimples, and are clearly embedded within the wen itself. All attempts at documenting the issue with photos have failed, and even in person, you have to somewhat strain your eyes to see it. A cursory google search hasn't turned up anything that quite matches the description, so I turn to your collective experience in hopes of getting an answer before this thing gets substantially worse. Thanks in advance for your time and input.
     
  2. Ichthius

    Ichthius AC Members

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    If you can get some pictures they would be very helpful. It sounds like a bacterial infection that could be it's own issue or more likely is secondary infection to a ciliate or other bug.

    I've spent lots of money on great fish from great suppliers just to have them come down with costia, trichodina or... It's their job to provide healthy fish but when that fails it's your job to make your fish healthy.

    I use potassium permanganate. search it on my blog for details and feel free to ask specific questions. I would get them in 3 ppt salt immediately and or use your favorite parasite treatment. The infection may go away on it's own once the primary cause is cleared up but it may take a medicated feed or baytril injections.

    I once had a group of chinese lionheads that got this type of infection and it was difficult to clear up. It finally cleared up when the last fish died. It is fairly slow moving so you have time to do your research and get the appropriate treatment.

    do you have a microscope? Scraping would be good to get an idea of flukes, or ciliates.
     
  3. SubRosa

    SubRosa Banned

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    Lymphocystis?
     
  4. Ichthius

    Ichthius AC Members

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    That tends to be on the fins.
     
  5. platytudes

    platytudes AC Members

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    All I want to say is...I hope you find some answers soon, Ricky! (And that Kashta doesn't move your thread ;))

    I must say, a microscope is so helpful for situations like this. This is exactly the kind of thing I used to write to Wet Web Media about in years past, and Bob Fenner himself (the founder of the site, among other job titles) would finish his answer with exactly the same last words as Ichthius had. He was right...one is not that expensive, can be gotten for cheap secondhand, and is tremendously useful along with a copy of Ed Noga's tome, but I'll be honest. I am never getting either of those things, and will probably continue blindly grasping for answers using my inadequate visual diagnostic process, using medications in a somewhat random and haphazard fashion to treat vague symptoms, for the rest of my years in this hobby...
     
  6. SubRosa

    SubRosa Banned

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    Not always:
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Inka4040

    Inka4040 O_o

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    Well, if anything, I am thoroughly worried now, at least. I do have a microscope, but it's a made in China POS. It's currently propping up my cable box, but I guess now is as good a time as any to dust it off. Have a can of PP around for disinfecting equipment, but I'll definitely go over to your blog and look through the dipping procedure. The fish are split up in two tanks at the moment, but came all packed in 1 very large bag. Presumably I'll have to put all of them through the same treatment, then huh? I was told that these fish were pre treated for flukes, but I guess that doesn't really address the rest of the issues that could be going on right now. Man, I love goldfish but all of the sudden they seem like such a hassle. Now I've gotta worry if I've inadvertently cross contaminated any of my other setups, as well as trying to figure out what's wrong with this poor fish. I've read about the injection procedure with fish, but have NO idea where to even start going about getting baytril, or needles gauged small enough for use with fish. Le sigh... Oh well, thanks for all of the quick responses and ideas. Seems I've got a lot of reading up to do.
     
  8. Kashta

    Kashta Always Niko's fault.....

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    I haven't seen that before, Ricky. What concerns me most about your description is the reference to red veins emanating from them. That makes it sound like small tumors which may decide to grow.




    Okay people, hurry up and solve this for Inka. THEN I can move the thread all over the site. Give it a real good tour! ;)
     
  9. mel_20_20

    mel_20_20 AC Members

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    I was thinking that sounds like it could possibly be tumors, but pics sure would help. I thought of lymphocystis; I've had some experience with that, but I've never seen what looked like blood vessels in those lesions.
     
  10. Inka4040

    Inka4040 O_o

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    I've been reading up on lymphocystis, and since it responds to salt as well, I'm going with Ichthius's suggestion right off the bat. Ramping up to a full 3ppt concentration over the next couple days. Here's hoping my shoddy math skills don't kill these guys before I can figure out what's wrong. If I disnifect the tanks with PP and dip the fish as well, will the water need to be salted upon their return to the newly sterilized tanks? Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I'm a total idiot when it comes to treating sick fish.

    Also a bit more info about the nodules. At this point, they are about the size of a small pinhead, and it looks like they might eventually come up to the surface. Also, after further examination, I can't be sure if the red veins are associated directly with the lesions, or are just visible because the wen is exceptionally clear and colorless. It seems there might be some pinkness in the same area on the other side of the fish, where there are no lesions.

    David, I didn't find an entry about preparing a PP dip for fish on your blog, but did see the entry about using it to sterilize a system. What do you think of the treatment method outlined in this PDF?
    http://t i n y u r l.com/ppdip
    please remove the spaces

    Also, I've been using this site as a resource as well. Do you think the info there seems current? The site is kind of old and janky looking.

    http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/disease.htm


     
    #10 Inka4040, Sep 3, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2011
  11. mel_20_20

    mel_20_20 AC Members

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    Ricky, I think your right to follow Icthius' advice on this.

    I do believe that if you bring your salinity to 3ppt concentration you should do that sorta gradually; I've done it in three doses over 36 hours, safely, and you could probably do it in 24, but I don't know for sure if that's best.

    I would have the same salinity in the tank water after the tank sterilization. I wouldn't put a fish in fresh unsalted water abruptly after you've had him at 3ppt for a few days: you want to back off slowly on the salinity.

    I've never done a PP dip, (scares the heck out of me), and I would need some hand holding on that, myself.

    Having put in my two cents, I certainly defer to Icthius on this treatment plan and would go with his input on the salinity issue, as well; it sounds like he has quite a bit of experience with a similar case in orandas. I've kept a variety of fish safely at that salt concentration for 30 days while treating a salt/heat resistant case of Ich, but I don't know how long he advises to keep your oranda in the salted water for this condition. I'm sure he will be back with more input on this.

    I hope things go well for you, Ricky. I know how frustrating it is and how desperate you can feel when you have a sick fish and don't really know definitively what the diagnosis is and the treatment should be.

    Hopefully, things will improve with this treatment plan. Wishing the best for you and your little oranda.
     
    #11 mel_20_20, Sep 3, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2011
  12. platytudes

    platytudes AC Members

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    If you get a chance, try emailing the folks at Wet Web Media. Neale Monks and Bob Fenner are both experts (not to mention authors) with over 50 years experience between them. They always have given me, if not a clear cut answer, then an excellent starting point for further research:
    http://www.wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubWebIndex/question_page.htmwhy

    Try and get some macro pics...for whatever reason (not sure this is still the case) they really don't like to look at YouTube videos, although I can't see that they wouldn't make an exception for a case like this, especially if you can't get sharp, focused pics.

    Oh, and don't mind the ridiculously long, unfriendly and confusing lists of rules and site search suggestions. I think it is their [misguided, IMO] attempt to filter out frivolous questions that really are a waste of their time ("my fish has white bumps on it, what's up with that?" or "my guppies are nipping my betta in my 5 gallon tank, what should I do?") since they have been answered a million times before.

    Some may call it elitist, but they respond very positively and thoroughly to someone who is able to display verbal prowess, such as yourself. Not that they aren't patient with people who don't articulate well, but I imagine it is a breath of fresh air to come upon an eloquent email now and then.
     
  13. Inka4040

    Inka4040 O_o

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    Thanks so much, Mel. The more I read up on the PP dip, the more it scares me as well. Considering how exact the dosing needs to be, I am not sure how I'm gonna go about achieving the proper concentrations without something like a jewelry or medicine scale.
    In any case, I will be performing a scrape today, though I don't really have the confidence or steadiness of hand to attempt a gill scrape. Been looking up youtube vids of the big 3 parasites to see what I need to be on the lookout for. Presumably I can video what is going on in the slide, and if that works, I will upload it for further review on this thread.

    Unfortunately, despite repeated tries, I cannot get a photo that even remotely shows the nodules. Between the mottled skin, the different layers of pigment in the wen, and the movement of the fish, unfortunately, the camera is just not picking up anything particularly descriptive.
    Thanks for the link to WWM, Nicole! I'll give them a shout and see what they say.


    Found this method of treating a whole tank with PP without the need for removing the fish. What do y'all think of this as a solution?
    http://www.goldfishconnection.com/articles/details.php?articleId=87&parentId=5
     
  14. Inka4040

    Inka4040 O_o

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    Scraped both the ventral and dorsal surfaces. Found nothing that moved. Granted, I know this is no guarantee that their gills are clean, but it's a good sign at least.
     
  15. Arakkis

    Arakkis AC Members

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    u sure you don't have a male goldfish?
     
  16. msjinkzd

    msjinkzd AC Members

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    I think he is pretty sure, as its on one side only and the fish is still quite young.
     
  17. Inka4040

    Inka4040 O_o

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    The original seller already has a batch of about 200 1" fry from this particular female, so yeah. I also know what breeding tubercles look like, lol. Thanks for your input though.
     
  18. Inka4040

    Inka4040 O_o

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    After further research, I have decided to treat both qt tanks with quick cure. If costia, trichodina, or childondinella is the problem, then that should take care of it entirely. After the quick cure treatment, I can wait a week and hit them with prazi just in case of flukes, and hopefully that will clear up the issue.

    David, if I end up having to go the medicated food route, is there a particular brand or variety that you would recommend? Any particular ingredients that I should look out for?
     
  19. mel_20_20

    mel_20_20 AC Members

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    Ricky, I've been researching this issue, when I've been able to be home long enough to be on the computer, and I've found some good information about medicated food for goldfish. I first was reading about antibiotic and antiparasitic medicated foods on the Goldfish Connection at this link:

    http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/listing.php?parentId=5

    This guy has developed this medicated food and I've read lots of reviews/testimonials by happy customers, on his site, as to the effectiveness of the MediGold medicated food. Apparently it tastes pretty good and even sick fish tend to go for it.

    Glowing reports on this guy's website, notwithstanding, I wanted to check it out from other sources and found that the medicated food MediGold was reviewed favorably on THE GAB, The Goldfish And Aquarium Board website. You've probably seen this site before, I have gotten a lot of helpful information from this site; Lupin is a moderator over there, too.

    http://thegab.org/Illness-and-Treatment/medicated-food-explained-and-explored.html

    Here's an excerpt from the GAB site discussing this antibiotic medicated food:

    "Medi-Gold and Medikoi
    These are very similar--and have the same medical ingredients. The Medikoi pellets are bigger than the Medi-Gold ones. Either one can be crushed smaller if they are too big for smaller fish to deal with.

    Active ingredients: Ormetoprim, Sulfadimethoxine, Kanamycin and Oxolinic Acid
    Ingredients explored: Oxolinic Acid is a quinolone antibacterial that works by antagonizing DNA synthesis in bacterial cells. Ormetoprim and Sulfadimethoxine (the ingredients in Romet B) both work by inhibiting bacterial growth. Kanamycin is bactericidal and does not just inhibit growth but kills bacteria.

    Use and Comments: With the addition of kanamycin, Medi-Gold is a good product to use against aeromonas infections (often the cause of ulcers) and it should work well against the other common bacterial illnesses as well. Available from PondRx.

    "Conclusions: For antibacterial food Medi-Gold is a very good option as its combination of antibiotics addresses a wide range of bacteria. There are also reports of bacterial resistance to sulfa drugs-a key ingredient in many of the other medications discussed here. Because of this, some people add another anitbiotic Trimethoprim to help strengthen the sulfa drugs. The combination forms are called a potentiated sulfa. Trimethoprim can only be obtained from a vet."

    So you can order this from PondRX or from the Goldfish Connection website, too. Not sure if you can find it locally.

    You can try to mix up your own concoction of food and antibiotic meds, and I've done this, but I've not always had the best success getting the stuff to be very tasty; I've mixed in lots of garlic to make it more appetizing and it works, but I've always had a lot of uneaten food left over to clean up. I've used kanamycin and metronidazole together, successfully, but if you can get the MediGold product I'd go with that.

    David may have other recommendations, or one of the other goldie experts here may have experience with a particular medicated food and, if so, I'd go with their recommendations. I've had experience with tropicals, so I'm not the last word on this by any means. I just want to help if I can.
     
  20. platytudes

    platytudes AC Members

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    Wow, the MediGold sounds like a real winner...and you could keep any unused portion in the fridge since pellets store so well compared to flake. It seems like an all purpose med since it combines several active ingredients.

    I've used these pellets from Ken's fish, he sent me a little sample of them with my last order:
    http://www.kensfish.com/product649.html

    They worked well when my goldfish had Furunculosis symptoms, of course he was in QT with medicated water...but I like to think the exclusive feeding of that food (which he ate eagerly) helped speed up the recovery process.
     

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