GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 16, 2002 11:32 PM IP: Logged


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I am planing on replacing my filters for my 135 Gallon tank with a large sump.
There will be a pair of overflow boxes feeding this thing (Marineland Tidepool S.O.S. boxes http://www.marineland.com/products/c...con_tpsos.html). The water will enter the sump through a Micron Sock. This will trap most debris before it enters the sump so it wont clog the bioballs. Cleaning should be a snap, either replace the sock, or rinse it out.

The water will then rise in the first chamber untill it overflows into the second, where it will spill across a drip plate (probably an undergravel plate). Water will pass through a cubic foot of bioballs before entering the third chamber.

The third chamber will house a submersible pump, 2 heaters, and a hang-on filter. The hang on filter will be used for "spot usage" of chemical media like carbon, ammo carb, Peat (for plants) etc. I would imagine I will have an aquaclear 500 for this.

This is probably going to a 30 gallon tank (little shorter then a 33). Let me know what you think.

http://aquafiend.plantedtank.net/images/newsump.jpg



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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 17, 2002 12:32 AM IP: Logged


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i dont like the SOS overflows.
they use a airtight box instead of a U-tube.

far more prone to failing.
http://www.lifereef.com/ makes good ones.



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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 17, 2002 01:53 AM IP: Logged


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What exactly can fail? Is this the kind of unit where enough air in the box can break the syphon?
Aside from the overflow does this design make sense?

[This message has been edited by GDominy (edited November 17, 2002).]



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Matak


Posts: 367
From: Stouffville, On. Can.
Registered: Jun 2002
posted November 17, 2002 12:30 PM IP: Logged


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Wow! I am sure impressed. You must have spent a few hours dreaming this up and a few more drawing it. Can you say overfiltered?
Would there be any advantage to adding fine filter gravel to the UGF plate? I have heard that beneficial bacteria grow best where the most surface area is and that fine gravel has the most surface area per cubic volume.

I missed the hang on filter in the drawing.

I am quite impressed.

Steve




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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 17, 2002 02:20 PM IP: Logged


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I didn't draw the hang on filter into the picture yet as Idon't know if I'm actually going to need it.
There is also a 10 gallon overflow tank that isnt drawn in there either. Just in case the sump overfills.

I don't think adding fine gravel to the Drip plate is a good idea, it might impede water flow which could overflow the sump.

I am building this sump with two things in mind:

A) Future Reef tank, just add a skimmer
B) Future Larger tank

And yeah, I spent a few hours last night planning ;-)



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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 06:27 AM IP: Logged


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any overflow boxes that arent using U-tubes are far more likely to get air in the tube and eventually loose siphon.


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DeVitaf


Posts: 862
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002
posted November 18, 2002 09:01 AM IP: Logged


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Wow, nice work.



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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 09:18 AM IP: Logged


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and the rest of the design seems fine, but i see no point for the fludized bed.
the bio balls will easily cope with a huge bioload.

oh yes, and you need to be very good with maintence for watching that micron sock. remember your going to need to be flowing at least 1000-1500 GPH (depending on overflow boxes and return pump) through the micron sock.

maybe youll want to add a little overflow or seal them or something so the water can bypass the micron sock.
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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 09:54 AM IP: Logged


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I was actually thinking about making the Micron Sock chamber a dual walled design. That way if the sock filled, it could overflow into the first chamber easily. I had the same concerns you mentioned.
The Fluidized bed filter will probably be the Power filter I originally discussed. This will ONLY be used for chemical media spot usage.

I have never use da Micron Sock in a design before, but I have used Micron Filter Cartridges in Magnum Canisters filters. How often do you think I will need to clean this thing? Once every few days? Once a week? Any guesses?



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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 09:55 AM IP: Logged


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why not just make another little tray below the bioball tower and put carbon in a mesh bag and put it in there?


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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 09:57 AM IP: Logged


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and i dont see the need for the 10 gallon tank either because you will never overflow the sump.
when you first set it up, fill the display tank all the way until the water is just about to go into the overflow.

then fill the sump completely.

when the pump turns on the water line in the sump will fall, and the water level in the display tank will rise, but you still have the same water volume.

just tryin to save you some work and money


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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 10:02 AM IP: Logged


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Actually, for that matter Slip, I could probably just drop the chemical media into the first chamber. Yeah, I'll do that, screw the extra bits... heh heh
I think I'll keep the overflow as a "just in case" Who knows I may end up using it down the road for something.

Should I go with an external pump or submersible pump for the main water return. Keep in mind I will need something that can push a fair bit of water at a 6 foot head....




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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 10:06 AM IP: Logged


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if you can get the tank drilled, then go with an external pump. they are big, bulky, and sometimes nosiy, but are far more reliable and will add less heat to the water (a big plus if you want a future reef tank)
pumps to consider are GRI, blueline, and if you want ALOT of water movement, an ampmaster 3000.

all will run silent.

ill get the flow chart diagrams for the pumps and tell ya how much they all flow at 6'



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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 10:12 AM IP: Logged


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GRI-520 570 gph
GRI-518 1140 gph
GRI-510 1140 gph
ampmaster 3000 2880 gph

BL 1100 900 gph
BL 800 700 gph



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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 10:33 AM IP: Logged


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Wow, I owe you one.
I really appreciate all this help. This will be my first large scale filtration system and I have many questions....

Do you have any personal experience with any of these pumps? I am a built concerned about noise levels so I need to take that into consideration. IE: is it going to be quieter then a Hagen Maxima/Optima Air pump?




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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 10:46 AM IP: Logged


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I am getting this sump made for me locally. Its only going to cost about $10-$20 more then the cost of the tank to have the extra glass siliconed in.
I can have it drilled, and have all the bulkhead fittings installed as part of the order.

Its nice having an aquarium manufacturer 20 minutes from your house.




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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 11:42 AM IP: Logged


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the ampmaster and GRI are quiestest.
if you put them on a rubber pad you can not hear either running.

i have personal experience with almost every pump out there

[This message has been edited by slipknottin (edited November 18, 2002).]



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DeVitaf


Posts: 862
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002
posted November 18, 2002 11:48 AM IP: Logged


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You could also make the extra filter (The one replacing the fluidized bed) a magnum 350.
Instead of using the micron sock you could use a more porous mechanical filtration to catch large debris and run the Micron filter in the magnum. When you need checmical filtration remove the micron cartridge and fill it with Carbon (Or whatever you need) I know the magnum will hold 15 ounces of optional media.

Of course that micron filter will clog as quickly as the sock but if it deos you don't have to worry about the huge spill the sock would cause.




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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 11:54 AM IP: Logged


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Good point, and seeing as the sump is replacing the magnum 350 I am currently using as one of two filters on this tank, I'll have a spare one.
So now the question becomes "what to do in the first chamber"

Obviously this is going to be the prefilter chamber to trap the bulk of the debris, so maybe build a sponge tower to trap large crud?




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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 11:58 AM IP: Logged


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well the bioballs arent meant to be a mechanical filter really, but they will trap most smaller particles on their own. just a function of how close together they are.
maybe put some coarse media in the tower, a couple sponges, pillow stuffing, or something like that.

sponges will still get gunked up reasonably fast with a large bioload, so youll still need to clean them out often.



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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 12:01 PM IP: Logged


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Maybe just plain old filter floss then? That should work pretty well I think, and its very inexpensive to replace.


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DeVitaf


Posts: 862
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Apr 2002
posted November 18, 2002 12:07 PM IP: Logged


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Yeah, I bought a big bag of filter floss at Big Al's for short money. I actually use it in my 350 instead of Carbon and just swap in some carbon when I need it. After meds or when the rtank begins to stink .


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OCSupertones


Posts: 105
From: CA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
posted November 18, 2002 01:01 PM IP: Logged


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You could put the AC 500 in with the heaters...and from there you could add carbon/meds/media.
if your going to use anything in the tower like the micron sock/floss/sponge/etc i would recommend make a 1" tube coming out from above the water line onto the undergravel plate...just incase your sock/floss/sponge/etc gets full before you notice...you could have a mess on the floor.

other than that it looks good. dont forget the drip loop on your cords

------------------
No eye has seen.
No ear has heard.
No mind has concieved what God has prepared for those who love him.
1 Corinthians 2:9

135 Gallon Cichlid Tank
(3) Labidochromis caeruleus 1m/2f
(3) Placidochromis electra 1m/2f
(4) Pseudotropheus socolofi 2m/2f
(3) Pseudotropheus acei 1m/2f
(4) Aulonocara rubescens 3m/1f
(3) Cynotilapia afra 1m/2f
(6) Protomelas taeniolatus
(5) Melanochromis johanni 2m/3f



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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 01:26 PM IP: Logged


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I'm already re-designing the pre-filter tower with an overflow into the first chamber. :-)
I'll use the Magnum 350 instead of an AC500 for any micron/chemical filtration that will be required.

This is great guys! Keep the idea's coming :-)




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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 02:16 PM IP: Logged


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Ok, so this is how I am envisioning the tower now. 1-2 shelves for media, and an overflow pipe into the first chamber.


slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 02:17 PM IP: Logged


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sounds good. you going to make this out of clear acrylic? glass? what?


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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 02:19 PM IP: Logged


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The tower will be clear acrylic. I want to be able to see what the status of the media trays is.
The Main Sump will be entirely glass, bulkhead fittings, all done by the manufacturer.



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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 02:23 PM IP: Logged


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cool.
clear towers are awesome nothing like being able to see the entire filter with one glance.

need ideas or help with anything else?



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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 02:26 PM IP: Logged


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The drip plate.
I was oping to use a prefab'd part for this like an undergravel plate. It's already the right size, and if I place it so the slits are running with the direction of the water it should spread it out evenly.

I've had a few people say "It will never work", but I don't see how it will be different then the drip plates I have seen made from acrylic with many drilled holes...



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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 02:35 PM IP: Logged


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they would technically work, the problem is the weight. more than likely youll just need to silicone them to either the glass tank or the acrylic.
silicone bonds well to glass, but is horible at bonding to plastics or acrylic.

egg crate is much the same way.

about the only thing you can do to support it is you put the silicone in to form a rim, and have the plate sit on it. then you can come back later and silicone it in place.

i believe thats how www.wetdryfilter.com does theirs.



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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 02:49 PM IP: Logged


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I was actually going to have a glass support rim siliconed in place to support the eggrate at the bottom of the chamber, and a rim at the top for the drip plate.
Sound workable?



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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 02:52 PM IP: Logged


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as long as there is support to hold up the weight (water soaked filter floss is heavy!) then youll be fine. i


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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 03:07 PM IP: Logged


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I think we started talking about different things...
I was refering to the drip plate ovre the second chamber that contains the bioballs.

For the filter tower the eggrate was going to sit on acrylic "runners" that would be cemented to the walls of the tower.



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slipknottin
Moderator


Posts: 4975
From: new britain, CT
Registered: Jan 2002
posted November 18, 2002 03:08 PM IP: Logged


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i figured you were using the same design for both the floss tower and for the bio-ball tower.



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GDominy


Posts: 547
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
posted November 18, 2002 03:14 PM IP: Logged


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The design will be the same, the materials will differ.
I would imagine that a 1" thick strip of acrylic cemented to the wall will be more then adequate in the filter tower, I plan on only making this about 8" square so its not too big (aka heavy).

THe people that had expressed concerns about hte drip plate in teh past were more worried about the even flow of water in the second chamber. I admit I can't really see what they were worried about, unless there are too many holes in a UG plate and not enough water would get to the far side of the plate. I guess some trial and error will be involved for some of the manufacturing process.




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OCSupertones


Posts: 105
From: CA, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
posted November 18, 2002 05:20 PM IP: Logged


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Maybe for the drip plate you could use something like a tube with holes in it...the the tube that powers the bio-wheels.
that would help disperse the water more...but i dont think it would be too even...

------------------
No eye has seen.
No ear has heard.
No mind has concieved what God has prepared for those who love him.
1 Corinthians 2:9

135 Gallon Cichlid Tank
(3) Labidochromis caeruleus 1m/2f
(3) Placidochromis electra 1m/2f
(4) Pseudotropheus socolofi 2m/2f
(3) Pseudotropheus acei 1m/2f
(4) Aulonocara rubescens 3m/1f
(3) Cynotilapia afra 1m/2f
(6) Protomelas taeniolatus
(5) Melanochromis johanni 2m/3f