Answers to Ich

  • Get the NEW AquariaCentral iOS app --> http://itunes.apple.com/app/id1227181058 // Android version will be out soon!

kreblak

FDA approval pending
Mar 13, 2003
782
0
0
Fish Whisperer, this thread is especially directed to you after that amazing reply regarding Ich.

I have always been unclear on this issue. Obviously you must quarantine new arrivals. But, how can you ensure 100% that you do not transfer Ich into the show tank? After quarantining a pseudochromis for 3 weeks, I netted him and transferred him to the main tank. He showed no syptoms in the QT tank, and all the fish in the show tank were fine for several months. After two days in the main tank, the pseudochromis was COVERED in Ich! He litterally went from clean to about 50 white spots in two days. How do I prevent this from happening again? Treatment for a show tank is a pain in the a$$!

Also, where can one obtain kick-Ick, how much does it cost, and what dosages did you use to wipe out the Ich? I'd like to see if it is more cost effective than No-Ich Marine.
 
Hi,

You're absolutely right about treating a show tank being a pain. ;) I agree 100%, which is why I go through the "pain" part whenever I get a new fish. You bring up a good question, hopefully I can address it satisfactorily.

I think I said in my reply that I quarantine and treat for ich, and this is irregardless of whether the fish has ich or not. Many folks only quarantine. I think I also alluded to the fact that even in quarantine a fish can host the parasite.

When we as hobbyists "quarantine" a fish, it is for a variety of reasons. First off, our main goal is to ensure it is a healthy specimen - not something that's rampant with a disease we are about to introduce. For visible deficiencies, this is a tried and true practice; it works well in helping to ensure healthy fish enter our tanks. But it is those invisible problems which can easily allude us. You can quarantine a fish for 3 months and still have the parasitic lifecycle ongoing in the quarantine tank. You have a good knowledge of its persistence, and no doubt experienced the frustration of doing "everything right" and still having a fish break out.

You may have either had an ongoing cycle in your main tank, or the pseudochromis may have been carrying - and upon entry into the main tank stressed significantly enough to lose even more immunity to the parasite. Fish have a slimy coating which helps naturally prevent against the parasite - and this is part of their natural immunity.

So, what to do? Many people don't believe in additional stressing of fish, and they think treating only stresses a fish. There is a definite school of thought that accepts ich as a natural part of the hobby, and they hope by maintaining the healthiest of environments they can stave off any ich which are perpetuating in their tank. These are the folks that you'll hear say, "Ich is always present." For some folks. ;)

So if you want to make sure you have an ich-free tank, here are the steps I'd take (darn, I actually wrote this out pretty well, somewhere - and wish I had it copied...) Oh well. :confused:

First, I'd establish complete quarantine of all fish. You yourself said it can be a pain; this is part of it.
You'll either have to have a large enough q-tank, or several smaller q-tanks. You can absolutely use Rubbermaid trash cans - I must have over a dozen laying around! There are the 20G which are great because you can move them with mostly full, or there are the 40 (actually, 38)G which are actually better for housing live rock during tank moves - but you can use either. There are also smaller rectangular tubs. These are all good because they are dark - which I believe helps ease the fish because movement which is visible outside the tank can absolutely stress fish.

Netting the fish is the biggest pain. Otherwise, I think most people would starve their tanks at any onset of ich in their tank. It is chasing that tang which can hide behind that very last piece of l/r in the tank!! ;) But if a person is absolutely serious about eliminating ich, they'll go through this initial trouble. When the fish are caught (I'm sure everyone is already familiar that you should use clear hospital boxes so you don't hurt fins - and it's usually just as easy to catch a fish) you'd put them in their q-tank(s) and treat for ich. Here again, hyposalinity (I believe) is the most effective and thorough treatment. TerryB has outlined the specifics and I would not do justice to try and reword his well-thought regimen. You basically are lowing the S.G. of the tank very slowly. He explains the process and I believe he has provided the hobby with the most tried and true methods.

Some people treat chemically, while the fish are in quarantine. I cannot say this hasn't worked for them. I am at odds with many of the chemical treatments because they basically "burn" the fish which causes them to shed their epidermal layers - and thus attached parasites.

I used to do freshwater dips. I'd have two q-tanks. I'd do a real quick freshwater dip before acclimating the fish into the first q-tank. I'd have the same temperature, but use absolutely fresh water for the first dip. I did it for about two minutes, and then scooped the fish out with a hospital box. I'd dump as much water out as I could, and then immediately pour more same temperature, but also fresh water into the hospital box. This is so I could then slowly acclimate the fish into the first quarantine tank. The first tank would have no l/r in it - totally empty. I'd then wait a few hours and repeat the exact same process and put the fish into the second quarantine tank - this one having some l/r for the fish to hide behind. The first tank can have covered sides (like cardboard) or you can have some PVC pipe in it - anything you can remove quickly to bag the fish.

I know this sounds like a pain. But I personally think seeing a fish succumb to ich is a bigger pain.

This is just one of several processes. Is it totally impossible to eliminate the ich? I think that's too bold an assertation to make. But we an certainly increase the odds to where introducing ich becomes a slim chance.

Some people think the regimen of freshwater dips is too "stressing" for a fish. Assuming the fish isn't already listing in a tank when you buy him, I can't see it being a problem; I've never lost a fish doing this.

A lot of folks are starting to do a hyposalinity treatment while their fish are in quarantine. Many have been doing this. I think it's probably the best way to go. I just liked doing the fresh dips because the ich supposedly detaches pretty quickly - and by trying to eliminate any water being transferred from dip-tank1-dip2-tank2 you greatly reduce the chance of introducing any tomites which might otherwise be transferred in water exchange.

The Kick Ich has been totally harmless against any fish or inverts during every test I used it in. However, the effectiveness is largely dependant on following the exact instructions - which include doseage changes over a period of time (15 days, to be precise). I repeated the doseage, as it doesn't harm the fish) to hopefully increase the effectiveness, if any tomites happened to survive the inital doseage. I could do this as I was doing some post-beta testing and I had a ton of free product to play with. Again, this product targets the free-swimming tomite stage, and if the directions are not completed the product cannot be blamed for a recurrence of the parasite. :eek: The product cannot guarantee the elimination of ich; no fish-friendly product can. I did find it to be effective in the elimination of ich in every instance in which I tested it. And I would get some pretty sad specimens to ensure I had a strong presence of the parasite.

Where to get it? Check your lfs. Ask them. To contact them direct I have the following info:
Ruby Reef Inc.
Telephone: (301) 622-3776
FAX: (301) 622-9063
email: rubyreef@erols.com

I think the product is pretty expensive - probably one of its downfalls. But I really like that it is absolutely reef safe for someone who wants to give that a shot in their full reef without having to tear everything down to net fish in a tank where rocks are fused together by soft corals. :eek: Remember, all hosts have to be removed to otherwise starve a tank.

Egads, I got sort of lost in my above ramblings and hope I haven't left anything out, and that I addressed your questions.

It is also so very important to understand that bringing in new inverts can also bring in free swimming tomites via lfs-water transfer. I acclimate inverts into a q-tank which I've prepared using my actual tank water. Then I can pick them right up, shake them off and plop them directly into the display tank.

I can't prescribe 100% practices to guarantee every person can prevent ich from transferring to their tank. But hopefully I can stress that we can take a variety of steps to greatly eliminate the possibilities. I do know that my systems are ich-free; the parasite can't appear out of nowhere and I've not introduced it into the tank. You are so right in saying it's a real pain. Prevention is time-consuming, but the alternative of dealing with it after you have an outbreak in a tank which is virtually impossible to tear down without destroying coral tissue is a lot worse, no?

I don't have a practice of continually risking introduction of the parasite because I don't have new additions on any sort of frequent basis. It's been months since I've even been to see my friends at two local stores. I say this to stress that the more introductions into a tank, the more chances of introducing ich. That probably goes without saying. :rolleyes:

Again, I hope I added something useful; if you've additional questions ask away - there's no way I could have covered every detail, but hopefully I got some of the big picture. ;)

Also, I hope nobody takes me as any sort of "authority" on the subject - that's hardly my assumption. ;) I've just done a bit of work and have been lucky enough to have done some product testing. I've made no discoveries, just followed the practice of learning the biological lifecycle of this parasite, and hopefully the best ways of eliminating it while doing minimal damage to our fish. There's a ton of great information about ich on the web, and I'd encourage folks to digest as much of it as they can, so that ya'll can make the best-informed decisions for your respective aquariums. :) Cheers!!
 

Corax

Temporarily risen from the dead..
Nov 14, 2001
1,351
0
0
Monty, have you ever actually given serious thought to writing a book? Frankly I think you could give the Fenners, Tullocks and Shimeks of the world a serious run for their money... Hell, I think the Shimeks of the world should be calling you for private tutoring ;)

<sits in awe of what ELSE might be floating around in that brain>
 

kreblak

FDA approval pending
Mar 13, 2003
782
0
0
Monty, have you ever actually given serious thought to writing a book?
Holy Crap, that WAS a book! I think you covered any questions I had, and any I might ever have. Wow...

BTW, do you know anything about marine snails? Specifically their reproductive processes?
 

Corax

Temporarily risen from the dead..
Nov 14, 2001
1,351
0
0
nah, I've seen him write much more. He wasn't even inspired in that post ;) Find a topic that gets under his collar, then you'll see a book heheh
 

kreblak

FDA approval pending
Mar 13, 2003
782
0
0
What exactly gets under Monty's collar? I'd hate to see him expound on something that really got him started! ;)
 
;) Under my collar? ;) The word "can't." :D :D

I'm very gracious to the kind words, and actually that is all I do now - write. But the stuff going to edit is mostly short stories... fictional shorts, as they're referred to. It's a lot of fun, but I enjoy trying to help out on the boards. Books in this hobby are tricky because I know two of the people mentioned above, ;) and most of their work is "compiled." There's absolutely nothing wrong with that (indeed, without them we'd not have their books!) but the inherent problem is that I prefer only to elaborate where I have a bit of personal experience. The info is much more grounded, I think, when you're not just passing something along. Bob Fenner has an entire staff devoted to research when he puts a book out. I do not. In other words, anything I wrote would be quite thin. :D I'm quite fine sharing stuff on the web - after all, we all learn from each other. This is the cutting edge reading material, anyway. IMO, the hobbyists (that's you guys and gals) ;) are the "go-to" for current info.

But thanks much for the kind words. I'd thought about an absolute "beginner book" focusing on all natural filteration, but we need some more definitive conclusions on the roll of macros and their uptake of nutrients. We have run a trigger tank with no macros, no sump... and no problems. There's no water changes, so the only "end-export" has got to be processed by the sandbed - something else we need to know more about. ;) The whole 6 inche requirement, for example has been totally disproven by many folks with nano systems. We run a 3" in the trigger tank, and a -4" in our full reef. But Rob Toonen just did a lecture where he addressed precisely this. He's going to be setting up 48 tanks using different means of filtration (plenum, sandbed) and going with 2" sandbeds. Speaking of Rob, he's your "go-to" guy when it comes to snails. Unfortunately he's still "settling in" to his new position at the University of Hawaii.

It would be great to learn more about the reproductive potential of snails, specifically in captivity. Whoever discovers the "trick" to breeding large populations of, say, turbo snails stands to make quite the fortune. We know we can reproduce the "little tiny" snails really easily in most reefs. Huge population explosions are frequent. Unfortunately these don't "grow to size." ;) Wouldn't that be nice! I do know that the medium-sized snails can reproduce in our systems because my good bud Smitty had tons of 'em.

I do know that I've seen snails for sale which are actually temperate species. These don't last long, as they gradually die off in the warmer marine environment. They'll last long enough to make you think it's your fault! I also think I've seen Ron talk about (I think bumblebee) snails which also die a slow death in our marine systems. I can't be sure which ones, but he'd certainly know and be able to share the type if you zipped him an inquiry. He'd also be a great person to ask about their reproductive potential.

Maybe the secret to snail reproduction lies somewhere in isolating them so that any eggs don't get eaten in our systems? Maybe a lot has to do with the right temperature required for a spawn? Current? These are some of the immediate things that come to mind, and I'd bet if we tweaked a few of these params we might be successful.

It would be great if someone here can share some thoughts; it sure seems like snails should be an easy one to propogate. :)
 

Corax

Temporarily risen from the dead..
Nov 14, 2001
1,351
0
0
Monty, I do hope you'll pop in more often. We have so many young keepers here that would beneifit so much from your words. Everything gets fielded very well by our mods and regulars, but the spin you manage put on even the most mundane of topics is always riveting. I'm sure I speak for most anyone here that is familar with you when we say that you are ALWAYS welcome on AC =)

I know I'm sounding like blushing fan or or sumthin, and I guess that's with good reason. When you do that tour, if you do indeed get to swing by TN and see Mutt, you tell him to let old Raven know when yer gonna be in town, k?
 

OrionGirl

No freelancing!
Aug 14, 2001
14,053
342
143
Poconos
Real Name
Sheila
Is it any mystery that when Monty does make an appearance, we end up archiving so much of what he shares?;)

Reminds me that all I am good for is cleaning up the dirty posts. :rolleyes:
 

Mandairn

AC Members
Feb 24, 2003
91
0
0
41
mn
Visit site
Just wonding how do, or rather whats the water peramtiors when snail reproduce in the ocean. Have people deterand if snails even are Male and female?

I read all of this and it was is long ..... but still i want to read on. If any one wrote a book you should. It's a rare gift to write about importan stuff and still keep the read wanting to hear more.


aBoUT tHE sNAilS ThE nEEd Ot Stare AnsWERING tHE QuEStIOn SOmE WHere. WhAt WhERE wHEn wHY and hOw In THe WilD.

shame it hard to find books on just moblie marine inverts. That go in depth in the subject.
 
zoomed.com
hikariusa.com
aqaimports.com
Store