Newbie Questions (A mixed bag)

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Seacon

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First, hello out there from a first time poster. I've found a ton of good info on this site and the forums. So thank you. I'm going to put all my basic info I think might be helpful and then ask my questions below.

I have a 20 gallon freshwater tank. I'm at the 3.5 week mark. I have made some pretty good mistakes in the learning process. My temp is a steady 79. My ammonia and CL2 are 0ppm. Total hardness is 120 ppm, total buffering capacity 120 ppm, pH is 7.6. Nitrate is holding at 20-40 range, but nitrite is probably above 5 ppm (less than 10 ppm) I am using mardel 5 in 1 test strips and Red Sea Fresh Lab for testing. I have added 2 tablespoons of salt to my water right off the bat, and 2 more, probably 2 days ago. The box says add 1 tablespoon per/5 gal, but it seems more recommended to use 1/2 or none. I only added more salt when I heard it was good to help fish deal with nitrites and had done a ton of water changes. The water I'm putting in the tank has pretty much the same stats but no real nitrate/nitrite/ ammonia, so I'm pretty sure that's not a problem. I believe I'm sucessfully done with the ammonia spike part of the cycle, I haven't detected it in over a week. I didn't faithfully test during the ammonia spike, so I don't know how high it got. I didn't know I needed to test a lot then. I am also guilty of being an overfeeder, but I did curb that pretty fast. I was also deep cleaning the gravel due to the mess. My water is very clear now, but I still stir up a bit of material during water addition. I let the tank run a week without fish. I then added 2 plecos a few days later a school of 5 neon tetras, and a week later 2 Raphael Cats (yes, now I know what they like to eat but my LFS didn't and neither did the website I researched before this one!!). The fish did fine, until 2 neons disappeared! (see last sentence). I moved out the Raphs, and put in 2 cories. The Raphs got there own little tank to settle that issue. Everything at this point is fine. I believe it was another week and I thought, this is going good and added 2 guppies and 2 mickeys (gold platys). This is also when I noticed by nitrates going up. One of the guppies and one of the mickeys died. So did a neon. I thought they died awful fast (1 day) and returned them to store. Got 2 more mickeys, 2 more guppies, and 3 neons. The match might not add up, but the fact is, I had 3 guppies, 3 mickeys, 8 neons, 2 plecos and 2 corys. I was told the plecos and cats don't count against my fish total, so I thought, I'm pushing the envelop of nice and slow, but every thing is going fine so why not. Then it happened, the nitrites when through the roof. My sea lab kit only goes to 1 ppm and I was beyond that, my test strips show between 5 and 10 ppm. I have been doing water changes pretty regularly the whole time, and probably stupidly cleaning too much and hurting my bacteria levels. I researched what to do for high nitrites and didn't really find much, it's nowhere near as documented as the ammonia spikes. But I did find water changes and so I did a 30% daily with no effect, everyone is dying. I increased to about a 50% daily with no effect. Still high nitrites, death after death. I didn't want to break down to chemicals as that seems to be a newbie mistake. With no one left but my pleco's, I finally added chemical. Too much fish death guilt already. So I added it at 9:30 am and find 1 pleco dead at 8 pm. I have 1 pleco left, and very little hope for him. A strange behavior my fish had was swimming up to the top and right back down. They went doing the gasp for air thing (I did get some of that during the ammonia spike!) But I read nitrites my the fish listless. So I didn't expect activity and it doesn't seem like they are trying to escape the poor conditions. I don't get it. Let me add that I have a Bio wheel power filter and heater. I haven't changed cleaned or touched the filter. I believe that I'm supposed to leave it alone until my cycle is finished. I have 1.5 to 2 inches of gravel, as recommended by the tank maker, but not by anyone else after some reading. Some of the fish were swimming somewhat drunkenly prior to death (the neons) floating along upside down death like then swimming away naturally from the net. One of the mickey's was swimming madly before the end. The others just went, one I didn't find till later, and one just kinda sat there and died. So, I think I have given as much info as anyone could need, and probably then some. But I have been wanting to post since the first deaths and built up a lot of questions. One thing I forgot: I have fake plants, not live. And even though it's been a rocky start, I think I could really get into this hobby. Thanks in advance for the help, and wading through this lenghty post! Questions follow.

General Questions:
PUR filtered water, good for the fish or not? I was using it + water conditioning, then thought, maybe it's filtering out useful hardness buffers.
Do I have too much gravel?
How many fish? I've heard the dreaded "inch per gallon" and used an online calculator that pretty much came out the same (23"), so I won't ask the old how many, but how about this, maybe it's another myth to dispel: Cats and plecos don't count. Should they? That makes sense to me, they poop.
Another related question: I read Cory Cats are schooling fish too, and they like a group of 6. Is that realistic in my aquarium? As you can see from the above, I do give everone a pal, and try to keep a good school for schoolers, but 6 cats? I don't have a problem with it, they are nice looking fish, but I don't want to take up my whole tank with any one type.
Specific Questions:
I am having a HUGE promblem with nitrites.
How often can I do a water change?
I am using AMQuel plus (removes nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia) as of today.
How soon should I see results?
Should I keep adding till I see results? (I'm guessing no)
With all the fish gone, should I do anything or just wait till my nitrite readings are good and then (slowly) add fish? The basic question is, will the cycle continue properly without fish?
Should I remove some of my gravel?
Assuming no fish, is it safe to remove a good chunk from a certain area and then give it a day or so and remove some in another
area?
Eddie
"There are only two kinds of creatures: predator and prey."
 
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PumaWard

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Jul 23, 2003
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Hello,
I'm sorry to hear about your ordeal, but it's not your fault. It's something most beginners go through because they have no idea what cycling is until it's too late (I went through the same thing as well :) ). I am also glad to hear you are willing to keep trying; even with a rough start, keeping a healthy, balanced aquarium is a satisfiying reward.

PUR filtered water, good for the fish or not? I was using it + water conditioning, then thought, maybe it's filtering out useful hardness buffers.

I really don't know about the PUR water filter, it might be a good idea to purchase a gH and kH test kit and test your tap.

Do I have too much gravel?

No, IMO you don't have too much. It's a good amount for live plants if you deside to go that route. Live plants are very beneficial to an aquarium as well :).

How many fish? I've heard the dreaded "inch per gallon" and used an online calculator that pretty much came out the same (23"), so I won't ask the old how many, but how about this, maybe it's another myth to dispel: Cats and plecos don't count. Should they? That makes sense to me, they poop.

The inch per gallon method works for things like tetras, but not for a fish like a larger cichlid. Plus, there's always exceptions and things get way too complicated. Here's my method, it has worked for me so far.
Labyrinthfish (gourami, bettas, paradise fish): 1 inch (of adult sized fish) per 1/2 gallon.
Bottom feeders (excludes kuhli loaches): 1 inch per gallon.
Tetras/barbs: 1 inch per gallon
Kuhli loaches: 1 fish per gallon
Angelfish: 1 fish per 5 gallons
Larger Sharks (Ballas, rainbow sharks), at least 5 gallons per fish

Also, you are correct in thinking plecos and catfish count, despite what your lfs told you. They were just trying to get you to buy as many fish as they could get you to.

Another related question: I read Cory Cats are schooling fish too, and they like a group of 6. Is that realistic in my aquarium? As you can see from the above, I do give everone a pal, and try to keep a good school for schoolers, but 6 cats? I don't have a problem with it, they are nice looking fish, but I don't want to take up my whole tank with any one type.

Cories are schooling fish, but they do fine in groups of 3-4, IME.

Specific Questions:
I am having a HUGE promblem with nitrites.
How often can I do a water change?
I am using AMQuel plus (removes nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia) as of today.
How soon should I see results?
Should I keep adding till I see results? (I'm guessing no)
With all the fish gone, should I do anything or just wait till my nitrite readings are good and then (slowly) add fish? The basic question is, will the cycle continue properly without fish?


Instead of adding anything, I would let the tank cycle with no fish. It's already partially cycled, so just put in the amount of food you would be feeding your fish everyday if you still had them. The reason for this is you need to still feed the bacteria which break ammonia and nitrIte down into an almost harmless substance (though not so harmless in high amounts): NitrAte.
You should begin to see everything starting going down within a week or two.

Should I remove some of my gravel?
Assuming no fish, is it safe to remove a good chunk from a certain area and then give it a day or so and remove some in another
area?


No, don't remove any of it. It provides a home for a large portion of the bacteria mentioned above, if you remove it, you remove the bacteria.

I hope this helps, and I wish you good luck :D, welcome to the art of fish keeping!
 

TKOS

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Always ask what the adult size of the fish will be. Don't go in with the attitude that you can always buy a bigger tank later. You should think about the tank you are dealing with. That being said plecos can attain a size of 2 feet and really need a minimum of a 55 gallon tank. They produce more waste then all of your little fish combined practically. You really need to get them out of your tank and then get a nice school of cories for the bottom. Maybe once the tank has been going for awhile you can get a siamese algae eater or some ottos, but I would wait for a well established tank.

I would stop using PUR water. It will strip out too much. Test your water. If the hardness and pH seem a but too high then you can use the PUR water to reduce it by mixing with regular tap water. But a good dechloinator and tap water should be a fine mix for the tank.
 

Seacon

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Not the nitrItes!

D'oh D'oh D'oh...I believe I found the real killer of my fish: Ich! Though my nitrIte levels were/are still a bit high, the killer I believe is Ich. That seems to explain why my fish were acting like they were having breathing problems, (kind of, but not quite, going to the surface for air). I also did notice little dots on some fish, but read so many "newbies are too quick to medicate" I held back. In my defense, I'd never seen Ich and not all the fish showed the white dots. This is my current belief of the true cause, feel free to correct it.

And to add a question in, I read that treatment can take a good 6 weeks after signs are gone. Is it safe to add fish during this phase or still a no-go?

Thanks,
Eddie
 
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demon_surfer

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Ich only comes out with the stress so they have it because of the conditions in the tank.

I comisirate with you about the fish, i had the same thing happen to my first tank. and when i finally got it stable i did a stupid thing and bought fish from a store that i didnt trust completely and everyone died.


anyway onto my suggestions -

What ever fish you still have are probably in a bad state, dont add any more to the mix till we get this thing up and running.

continue doing water changes, but dont get EVERYTHING out of the gravel. There needs to be some waste in the tank for the bacteria to get going (as you said you know this :) )
try taking out about 20% - 50% of the water each day, what ever you are comfortable with. but dont go over 50% anything over that and you risk upsetting the bacteria and starting the whole cycle going again.

please post again with what fish you have left.

An alternative may be to completely start over again, take all the fish you have left back and get some ammonia and perform a fishless cycle. This means you have a week or two with no fish in the tank but when the cycle is stable you can immediatly fully stock the tank.


if you dont want to do this just keep doing the water changes till the nitrates go down and treat the fish for their ich.
 

Seacon

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Thanks for the input, DS. As for the fish left, I have one stubborn pl*co left, (he’s also the first one that I put in there). I have a small (5 gal) tank I could temporarily move him too, but, it's not empty (two danios) so I don't want to move him and infect that tank.
If the pl*co doesn't make it, I will indeed probably take your advice and go a fishless cycle, also might move in the danios after than and have a quarantine tank!

Oh final clarification, the question on adding fish was: If my parameters are perfect (NO2, NO3, pH, NHO3/NHO4) but I'm still in the "treating for ich" stage, should I add any one?

Thanks,
Eddie
 

PumaWard

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It's probably best to wait before adding anymore fish while you are treating for ich. New fish tend to be stressed and could be vulnerable to it when they are added.
 

Seacon

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Update

Well, it's been 1 week since I started treating the Ich. I used Rid Ich+ and it was gone in probably 3 days (visibly on the fish), I went ahead and treated out longer as recommended. My NitrAtes and NitrItes are very low (I finally got to 0.2 mg/L nitrItes today, steadily dropping all week). [insert for those keeping track: I did not use AmQuel + after all, someone suggested not to, so I followed that advise] I used Biozyme. I read alot that it's "snake oil". After using it, I'm not sure. My nitrItes did drop, but my tank has been cycling a while too, so it also seems like I was due. So, I don't have much opinion on it yet, guess that will have to wait for the next tank. A quick note, they don't sell Bio Spira around my local area, and my LFS recommended Biozyme as "the greatest stuff", so regardless of if it works or not, some folks swear by it. My LFS rep didn't strike me as an aquarium guy though, so...
Anyway, long story short, the aquarium is finally stabilizing, and I might get to stop doing daily water changes! :cool:
The mighty pl*co is still the last man standing in the tank, eventually he'll have friends. I have two danios in quarantine (see, I'm learning!) that may join in next weekend.
Finally, I'll wrap up by asking questions:
With the Ich gone, I noticed "rub marks" on the pl*co. One on the nose (a small patch) and at the anal fin. Looking directly down on him (he's enjoying the cucumber I gave him) he's redish in that area. Kind of rubbed raw? The rub patch also goes up the sides around that area on the tail. Is he itchy from Ich, is the Rid Ich+ burning him, or what?
Now that pl*co is the only one left, I see a ton of poop, that can only be his. I heard that they are poop machines, but it's astounding. Could this be a sign of stress and/or Ich? I give him a half a algae disk or a slice of cucumber ever other day.
What is an appropriate amount of time to leave cucumber/veggies in the aquarium? It doesn't seem like it would "go bad" for a while, but I don't want to overfeed or dirty up the tank, so overnight, longer?

Thanks to all for the help!
Eddie
There are only two kinds of creatures: predator and prey.
 
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demon_surfer

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The poop is a sign he is eating well ;)

It is very tough to kill plecos lol...i managed it once..had one in with some mbuna...i thought he was ok..till i poked him and he rolled over...they had eaten he eyes and all his insides..from the top he looked almost fine! :eek:

anyway, the red marks sound like sores this is another disease the fish can get..again this is the stress coming into play. Something like quick cure or melafix are commonly recommended on the boards i frequent.

once youve beated that then you can start to rebuild.

As I see it you have two options either slowly refilling the tank as you started doing (just a little more carefully ;) )

OR, you can move the pleco into your other tank (once he is cured) and then do a fishless cycle. and when the fishless cycle is done throw in all the fish you want in there and poof your done..

you can probably tell i prefer doing the fishless cycle! i did it recently on a 55 and when it was done put in 12 mbunas at about 1.5 to 2 inch long and a chinese aglae eater all at once with no problems.

keep us updated on your pleco!
 

Seacon

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Update/New questions

For those of you keeping track at home, the mighty pl*co did survive. I now have it, 3 platys, 5 long fin zebra danios. Everything seems to be going well, however, I guess as I progress I get more questions, so here we go:

Stringy poop: The pl*co and platys both seem to have it. I read that this is not good. Is it always a bad sign, what is the recommended treatment if so?

Ich: I notice my pl*co occasionally has a white spot or two on him. Some times like a little fleck, and yesterday a bump. Can't find it today tho, and he looks perfectly clear. Considering my previous ich problem, I fear missing the first stage and losing fish, but also worry about treating healthy fish and harming them with meds. No other fish show signs, no one is acting sick, including the pl*co. So far it hasn't exploded in the tank while I've been watching, so what recommendations do you guys have for me, to treat or not?

Amquel+ and NovAqua, well I had bad luck with my platys till I started using them, could be coincidence or just that I got a lot of weak platys. Any info, is this a good practice to the experienced folks or waste of cash (I add when adding fish, and water changes)? Also are platys not hardy, I thought they were but it took me several tries to get my little familly going.

NitrAtes: Every 2-3 days I have 30-40 ppm, is there a way to lower this, should I try? I do water changes to continue this process, but am I missing anything? I have a 20 gallon with the above fish.

Water changes: I do about 20% every 2-3 days as mentioned, is that too much? Is there such a thing as too much? Obviously, I guess there is, but 10% daily, 25% daily? Just curious on this one.

Thanks in advance,
Eddie
 
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