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  1. #1
    Plants need meat too jpappy789's Avatar
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    Euthanasia-discussion thread

    Euthanasia-discussion thread
    Article found here:
    http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums...d.php?t=148361

    Very well written! Of course there will be controversy but its nice for someone to put out the actual methods out there to be used, hopefully never though...thanks ct!
    Last edited by msjinkzd; 06-26-2008 at 12:16 PM.
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  2. #2
    Red-Headed, Non-Step-Child kimbo3311's Avatar
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    OK, this was well written, and I do agree that there are ethically good ways and ethically bad ways to kill a fish. I also agree with the listing here. clove oil is very effective, and you can easily overdose them to kill them. My only problem with this article is the statement that it is a myth that fish do not feel pain. Yes they have stress responses, but so do many invertebrates. Fish do not have the necissary part of their brain to interpret pain. they do have sensory cells, and yes, they can be "trained" but they are physiologically unable to "feel" pain.

    This of course does NOT mean that fish are not worthy of proper, ethical treatment. They should be taken care of just like any other animal, and cruel treatment is never justified.



  3. #3
    Fish & Visitors Smell in 3 Days... ct-death's Avatar
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    First off thank you for your time to comment and offer your thoughts. I certainly encourage an open dialog as I know this is a "touchy" subject.

    However, as to the idea of pain I would like to offer this for discussion --

    "Definition of Pain


    Pain: An unpleasant sensation that can range from mild, localized discomfort to agony. Pain has both physical and emotional components. The physical part of pain results from nerve stimulation. Pain may be contained to a discrete area, as in an injury, or it can be more diffuse, as in disorders like fibromyalgia. Pain is mediated by specific nerve fibers that carry the pain impulses to the brain where their conscious appreciation may be modified by many factors.
    "
    - MedicineNet.com

    I tried very hard to see if this "Myth" was credible, but based on science,
    Pain is literally the conscious reaction of the brain to firing nerve endings as a result of
    some undesirable (or even potentially unwanted) environmental stimuli

    Simply, Pain is experienced by the brain in a process termed nociception. This is the detection of a stimulus by a pain receptor, and transmission of the information to the brain via nerves.

    Traditionally, Pain may be experienced in response to ...

    - Stimulation of a Pain receptor (nociceptor), which can be caused by any number of stimuli such as: chemical, heat or from some physical effect beyond a tolerance level.- Actual damage to a pain nerve
    - Brain Damage interupting this pathway


    I'll end with this, and I think this is what defines your point Kimbo (please correct em if I'm wrong!)...

    It's the idea that in order for Pain to exist, you must have a sentient life with a consciousness vs the simple presence of the nervous pathways and physiological responses associated with pain.

    As a result, I often ran into this:

    "In order to show that a fish experiences pain, it is necessary to show that a fish has consciousness.
    Without consciousness, there is no pain.
    "
    - Dr. James D. Rose, Ph.D., Univ. of Wyoming (a critic of fish sensations)

    Please feel free to share your information.

    Thanks
    Last edited by ct-death; 04-06-2008 at 9:58 AM.
    There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot. - Steven Wright
    90G 3 Veil Angels, 6 Boesemani; Blue Ram; 5 Agassiz's; 4 Julie's; 4 Green-Golds; 3 Schwartzi's; 3 Otos; BN; Clown Plec, Stripped Raphael; 3 YoYo's; 2 SAEs; 5 Silver Hatchets
    10G 1 Oto; 2 Panda Corys, 10+ Endlers; 1 male Guppy; 10 Ghost Shrimp; 3 RCS
    How to Euthanize Humanely?



  4. #4
    Junior Member bigedv3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ct-death View Post
    EUTHANASIA


    First, I did not plan on having this Topic become my first article; however, I have seen many posts ask about, ‘How do you humanely euthanize a fish?’ Many of those same threads provide differing opinions on not only the methods to employ but also to its necessity…

    Myths: “Fish can’t feel pain right?”
    This is a very common question, and myth, but more often than not I have found that most are simply looking for some sense of reassurance that what they are proposing to do is ethically/morally okay. The truth is, however, that of course they feel pain. Fish have an intricate nervous-system, but we often don't readily see the signs of distress because fish lack the facial responses and expressions we readily associate with pain and fear typical in most animals. The reality is, if you're observant to the signs, many fish noticeably exhibit either behavioral or physical signs of affliction when they're distressed or in pain (ie. vigorous and often violent movements; color-shifts, often fading or paling in nature; and changes in normal social and other behavioral activities are all clues to their distress). Many of these same symptoms we actively use in our hobby to discover wounds, diseases or other ailments earlier than we perhaps would otherwise.

    What is it, and Why do it?
    euthanasia (yū'thə-nā'zhə, -zhē-ə) n.
    Greek, meaning “Good Death”.
    “Euthanasia is the practice of ending the life of a human or animal who is incurably ill in a painless or minimally painful way, for the purpose of limiting suffering. Laws around the world vary greatly with regard to euthanasia, and are constantly subject to change as cultural values shift and better palliative care, or treatments become available.


    - Reference: Wikipedia

    How do I know if my fish needs to be Euthanized?
    Reasons for Euthanizing a Fish –
    • Irreversible Disease - Cannot be treated, such as Cancer
    • Major Injury - Fish cannot survive on own
    • Suffering – Non-treatable ailment (i.e. In some cases; old age)
    • Culling
    NOT Reasons for Euthanizing your Fish -
    • Fish outgrows it’s environment, or is inappropriate for your setup
    • Fish becomes aggressive towards other tank-mates
    • Lose interest
    • Moving, or desire to change your tank
    • Any other reason given that is correctable or the cause of the owner
    Methods Commonly Approved:
    I would like to preface this section simply by saying that many methods are in use and that most are controversial (as is the very notion of Euthanizing), but I have only tried to list those methods deem ‘acceptable’ by most and would be considered common practices. Certainly others exist…

    Freezing
    Correct Approach is to place a bowl of water into a freezer and let stand until a thin crust of ice has formed. The ice should be sufficiently formed to require one to break threw the surface. The goal is to ideally reach a Fahrenheit temperature of 29 degrees (or less). Once achieved, a fish may be placed in the bowl. Nearly instant, it is a very quick and efficient method by most accounts.
    so is one supposed to set the doomed fish on the unbroken "ice surface" or break through and try to get the fish into the water under the top layer of ice?



  5. #5
    Registered User of Fish
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    I would also add that while your reasons for "not euthanizing" a fish are admirable they are not always the case. Often people mistakenly buy the wrong fish (balas, ID Sharks, pacus) simply because they are misinformed. It can be very difficult to find a new home for extremely large fish. Ideally the person would not buy a wrong fish but it surely does happen. And there are just as well other times where a fish can't be given away. Just because I can't care for my fish I wouldn't just give it away to anyone who asked for it.

    I would suggest this is the only controversial part of the article. The choice of euthanasia is up to the ethical beliefs of the owner.
    My White Cloud Mountain Minnows can beat your oscar anytime. From the inside!



  6. #6
    Fish & Visitors Smell in 3 Days... ct-death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigedv3 View Post
    so is one supposed to set the doomed fish on the unbroken "ice surface" or break through and try to get the fish into the water under the top layer of ice?
    In the water, as the ice is broken up. Essentially, the ice is only used as a visual to determine if the water itself is ready for this purpose.
    There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot. - Steven Wright
    90G 3 Veil Angels, 6 Boesemani; Blue Ram; 5 Agassiz's; 4 Julie's; 4 Green-Golds; 3 Schwartzi's; 3 Otos; BN; Clown Plec, Stripped Raphael; 3 YoYo's; 2 SAEs; 5 Silver Hatchets
    10G 1 Oto; 2 Panda Corys, 10+ Endlers; 1 male Guppy; 10 Ghost Shrimp; 3 RCS
    How to Euthanize Humanely?



  7. #7
    Fish & Visitors Smell in 3 Days... ct-death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKOS View Post
    I would also add that while your reasons for "not euthanizing" a fish are admirable they are not always the case. Often people mistakenly buy the wrong fish (balas, ID Sharks, pacus) simply because they are misinformed. It can be very difficult to find a new home for extremely large fish. Ideally the person would not buy a wrong fish but it surely does happen. And there are just as well other times where a fish can't be given away. Just because I can't care for my fish I wouldn't just give it away to anyone who asked for it.
    Although I may wish it were not the case, but you are very correct. I did not include this purposefully, however, becaue I did not want to introduce anymore "gray-areas" than necessary.

    I would like to think that as one makes a poorly informed decision - albiet from "expert" guidance from your LFS - that you will soon realize the mistake and the LFS should feel an obligation to correct the issue. I know that here locally this is often (but not always) the case.

    Secondly, I did not want to offer an easy "out", and I realize that this was not your point; But I feel strongly that every effort should be made to find a suitable home for any unwanted pet - As a last resort...yes.

    Just to muddy the waters and stimulate conversation:
    If I bought a St. Bernard and lived in a small Studio, later realized my mistake, I do not think anyone would condone any method of Euthanization...
    There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot. - Steven Wright
    90G 3 Veil Angels, 6 Boesemani; Blue Ram; 5 Agassiz's; 4 Julie's; 4 Green-Golds; 3 Schwartzi's; 3 Otos; BN; Clown Plec, Stripped Raphael; 3 YoYo's; 2 SAEs; 5 Silver Hatchets
    10G 1 Oto; 2 Panda Corys, 10+ Endlers; 1 male Guppy; 10 Ghost Shrimp; 3 RCS
    How to Euthanize Humanely?



  8. #8
    Senior Member
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    Lets not turn this into a debate. Please keep comments so that they are relevant and helpful to the article or they will be removed. This is supposed to provide information that is helpful and relevant to fishkeepers, not turn into a moral or ethical debate. Ideally one would research any fish before purchase.



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    The ethical ways you mention are a bit complicated and in my opinion have more potential for things to go wrong. I had to put down a female rainbow cichlid today after a few weeks of watching her sore grow to an enormous size. It was big and deep. I hated doing it, but I wrapped her in a paper towel and used the smash method. One quick blow and it was over. Was it fun for me? No, and I dread the thought of ever having to do it again! But I would contend that it makes more sense than putting a frightened fish through even more turmoil by moving it around a bunch. I decided if I'm going to keep fish it's something I have to be willing to do when the situation warrants it.



  10. #10
    Neppy4evrrr anaerobe's Avatar
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    Fish are conscious creatures. There is no question about it. They are living, breathing just like you and me.

    My bettas and plecos recognize me. My other fish (platies, danios) don't, but it's probably because they don't care to (and that's quite alright). I had 2 fiddle crabs - completely different personalities. I had 2 tiny ADF frogs, they both flinch at pain (I had to move them around between tanks).

    All in all, I believe there is no question that fish (and other aquatics) are conscious, whether true or not. Leave the scientifically proven alone, because it is pretty much impossible to PROVE that even you and me are conscious. In my opinion, just knowing that they have a nervous system is enough to say they do feel pain.

    I was also thinking back to my Human Physiology labs, one of which we were poking earthworms to measure muscle movements. They flinch at the smallest poke. Poor guys. Yes, even earthworms feel pain. You need to be able to feel pain to survive in this world.



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