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  1. #11
    Neppy4evrrr anaerobe's Avatar
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    Another thing, when we wonder about things that we can't prove, we should just think - of the possibility that is of benefit to us and the other side.

    So it is to our benefit to think that fish can feel pain - as much as we do. Because it benefits the fish that they will get treated well, and it benefits us that we are not hurting them.
    It is detrimental to think fish don't have pain because we end up hurting the fish if they really do feel it.

    Anyway, the only thing I'm wondering about this whole Euthanasia thing... How can you tell whichever method is "humane"? I mean, no one's coming back from the dead to tell you how it feels... I think it is possible to appear peaceful and yet feel pain. Any thoughts on this?





  2. #12
    Senior Member
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    I would suggest making a thread in general freshwater if you want to have a discussion.



  3. #13
    is in your closet. kimmisc's Avatar
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    The last time I euthanized a fish was when her right gill, side of her face, and eye appeared to be rotting off quickly (popped up in 1 day). She was suffering and flashing every few seconds, swimming upside down half the time and twirling. In a rush, I dumped a tray of ice in a bowl of water, and when it was very cold, I dropped her in. It didn't kill her! In a panic to put her out of her misery, I put her on the counter, grabbed a knife, and chopped her head off. When I did this, I saw her heart beating for about 15 seconds afterwards. It seems impossible that her heart was beating after her head was chopped off.

    This sounds awful, and it was. I was depressed for days and still depressed to recall it.

    So when thinking about euthanizing, think ahead and prepare so that it works quickly and correctly. She would have been better off flashing for another 45 minutes or so than go through an agonizing death. Don't make a stupid mistake like I did.



  4. #14
    Noob Aquarist Intelekt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaerobe View Post
    Fish are conscious creatures. There is no question about it. They are living, breathing just like you and me.

    My bettas and plecos recognize me. My other fish (platies, danios) don't, but it's probably because they don't care to (and that's quite alright). I had 2 fiddle crabs - completely different personalities. I had 2 tiny ADF frogs, they both flinch at pain (I had to move them around between tanks).

    All in all, I believe there is no question that fish (and other aquatics) are conscious, whether true or not. Leave the scientifically proven alone, because it is pretty much impossible to PROVE that even you and me are conscious. In my opinion, just knowing that they have a nervous system is enough to say they do feel pain.
    this is the same half researched reasoning for the evangelical explination for man living with dinosaurs, very bad information, and science is EXACTLY that, only the things wich can be PROVEN.

    you say your fish have a memory of you however for the most part they cant see you, depending on the thickness of your aquarium glass they cant see out of it at all.

    another main point about pain is that without a memory pain is inconsequential, this is easily explained using the metaphor of a human male having a circumcision, while the act is phisically painful and the baby will cry, shortly after there is no memory of the event, this is due to an undeveloped brain at this point, however fish do not develop memories in the same sense that humans do because most memories rely on spoken language to describe said memory. fish do not comprehend language therefore have no refrence for pain. the reason an earthworm moves when you poke it is the basic fundamental of any living thing, INSTINCT, animals lives are completely dependant on instinct and our CONCIOUSNESS is what seperates us from them. I love my fish but I also understand that animals are subservant to humans, we are more developed and posess a level of intelligence that no animal could ever obtain.

    just thought this discussion should have the real root discussed which is the fact that any form of euthinisation is simply that, killing the creature for its own benefit, this is to make us "the human owner" feel better about the situation, becasue when you think about the idea of keeping fish as pets, that alone is taking them out of their natural environment and placing them on display for asthetic quality, so the whiole humane portion of the discussion is kind of redundant, the humanity of keeping fish in a glass box is on par with that of smashing it with a mallet...

    i do however agree that you should not flush a live fish down the toilet, and that is just a respect thing for me, in my climate the fish would die extremely quickly, however it seems just evil to simply flush it for no reason.
    55 Gallon - 7 Giant Danio - 1 Opaline Gourami - 1 Pink Kisser Gourami - 2 Fully Grown Pleco.

    20 Gallon - 7 Neon Tetras - 3 African Dwarf Frogs.



  5. #15
    I wish I was a fish I wish. Que's Avatar
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    If we go by this definition http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humane

    hu∑mane Pronunciation: \hyŁ-ˈmān, yŁ-\ Function:adjective Etymology:Middle English humainDate:circa 1500 1 : marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals
    Then putting a fish down when there is no reasonable hope of a cure is humane. It's ethics which dictates the right or wrong of how we do it. There are several methods described in this thread where some are considered wrong and some are considered right. In the best interest of the animal I have always considered the fastest method of putting a fish down to be the most ethical. Quickly severing the spine at the base of the head has always been the fastest method I have used and is practically instantaneous. I realize this method is not for everyone but is the most ethical in my estimation. I'm surprised it hasn't been listed as one of the "approved" methods.

    Q
    Last edited by Que; 06-09-2008 at 4:52 PM.
    Where is the ignore button?



  6. #16
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    I appreciated this article. There's enough gray area in the hobby as it is (such as, is it even ethical to support an industry that removes live animals from their natural habitat, etc, etc). so thanks.

    Can these methods be safely used with other tank dwellers like larger frogs, newts, inverts, etc?



  7. #17
    Senior Member Tongue33's Avatar
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    I like the article as a whole..

    I do however diagree with the useage of the word Barbaric.

    Personally I believe Blunt trauma to be more humane than Clove oil. Though That is simply my opinion.



  8. #18
    Pterophyllum scalare jm1212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Que View Post
    If we go by this definition http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humane

    Then putting a fish down when there is no reasonable hope of a cure is humane. It's ethics which dictates the right or wrong of how we do it. There are several methods described in this thread where some are considered wrong and some are considered right. In the best interest of the animal I have always considered the fastest method of putting a fish down to be the most ethical. Quickly severing the spine at the base of the head has always been the fastest method I have used and is practically instantaneous. I realize this method is not for everyone but is the most ethical in my estimation. I'm surprised it hasn't been listed as one of the "approved" methods.

    Q
    exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimmisc
    When I did this, I saw her heart beating for about 15 seconds afterwards. It seems impossible that her heart was beating after her head was chopped off.
    excess electrical impulses can cause the fish to move, the mouth to open and close, etc. for a few seconds after the fish is dead. if the spinal cord was cut and the head was cut off, the fish was dead. the body cannot survive without the information source that tells everything what to do. all that you saw were just leftover impulses from the brain.



  9. #19
    Senior Member PsyKick's Avatar
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    It seems to me that ethics and morality aside, using clove oil to sedate the fish before proceeding with ANY of these other forms of death is preferable to not.

    It just seems nicer to put a fish to sleep before you kill it...



  10. #20
    Mmmbeer
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    You ever gutted a fish before? I mean a trout or something of course, not a guppy. They're tough enough that cutting them open and hacking their heads off will leave them alive for some time. For this reason alone I wouldn't go with some kind of blunt trauma or physical harming of the fish to induce death, no matter how quickly it is inflicted. Yet, many people seem to do it with wild fish without a second thought (I think about it a little bit, but how else am I supposed to get that fish on my plate?).

    I am one of those evangelical wackies that believes animals don't have souls. We are still called to be good shepherds of nature.



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