Experienced in Puffers and ich? Nothing's working and I need help.

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davina

Never too smart to learn more!
Jul 14, 2008
40
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Orange County, CA
www.myspace.com
I need to talk to someone with experience with puffers. i've been reading up on treating them for ich and trying everything. my fish is still alive, but the ich won't leave.

here's my sad but typical story. i've been trying s.w. for a few years. i'm almost ready to give up, but i'm not a quitter by nature haha. time after time, when i purchase fish from my local s.w. fish store (where the owner is an expert) they always get ich and the fish die...and that's with adding the fish all at the same time, from the same store, so i didn't have a need for a q.t.
after my last wipe out, my tank had been set up and cycled for over 1.5 years with only a chocolate chip starfish and some crabs and snails. this past Feb i thought i would add some damsels to get the fish started again. they were fine for 4 months, so i added a blue tang. within 2 days the tang had ich and i took it back immediately. the owner treated it for me and told me to pick it up in 3 days which i did, and he also told me that i didn't have to treat the tank because there wasn't enough time for the ich to hatch and get into the tank.


the next morning the tang was dieing. the damsels were fine. so the owner tells me (even knowing that i have 3 of his damsels) that he thinks the damsels killed the tang.


well there goes more of my money. he makes a deal and lets me trade in the damsels and gives me partial credit for the tang, so i bought a dog-faced puffer that i fell in love with....

within 3 days...low and behold he got ich. i can't understand it. i have done everything the owner has told me to do in regards to my tank set up. the water continues to test fine.

so here it is a week and half later and i've been keeping my baby alive with daily f.w. dips, daily partial water changes (getting very expensive with the salt usage), and half doses of Rid Ich. i read that puffers can't have the full dose because it burns their skin. I have also been soaking his shrimp in crushed garlic because i read that it detours parasites.


well.....the ich is still going strong, though it looks as though it's not burried in the skin, but "floating" slightly attached to the coating on his body...if that makes any sence at all. to my surprise the fish is still alive.

my ammonia levels went up because i haven't been able to use my carbon.


i'm worried about that, even though i used AmQuel. i dont' know how long the tank can go without active carbon before my biological filtration dies off. i've read about lowering the salinity, but i'm so afraid of doing that too fast, or for too long of a period and shocking him, and everyone has a different s.g. to use. any more suggestions? i just want this one fish to live and have a happy life. i don't even think i'm going to add other fish...ever. it's too much stress. i lost my starfish when i removed it to do the treatment. i don't have a lot of extra money right now, but what is the outcome of uv sterilizers? :help:

 
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MonoSebaelover

Anableps
Apr 20, 2001
1,410
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0
Phoenix, AZ
www.shiredalefarm.com
Welcome to Aquaria Central! You have a Narrow line Dogface Puffer (Arothron manilensis) which is my FAVORITE of the Dogs! What are your water quality values? What does ammonia read, nitrite, pH and nitrate. Ammonia shouldn't spike because you removed carbon. What size tank do you have? What type of filtration do you have?
As for the Damsels they could have very well stressed the Tang, Damsels (if added at all) should be the LAST thing added to your tank. Anyway we are going to need more info before really being able to help. Hope this helps and welcome!
 

Catpicklesdog

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Feb 25, 2007
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Telford, UK
Real Name
Alison
I need to talk to someone with experience with puffers. i've been reading up on treating them for ich and trying everything. my fish is still alive, but the ich won't leave.

here's my sad but typical story. i've been trying s.w. for a few years. i'm almost ready to give up, but i'm not a quitter by nature haha. time after time, when i purchase fish from my local s.w. fish store (where the owner is an expert) they always get ich and the fish die...and that's with adding the fish all at the same time, from the same store, so i didn't have a need for a q.t.

Do you have one now?

after my last wipe out, my tank had been set up and cycled for over 1.5 years with only a chocolate chip starfish and some crabs and snails. this past Feb i thought i would add some damsels to get the fish started again. they were fine for 4 months, so i added a blue tang. within 2 days the tang had ich and i took it back immediately. the owner treated it for me and told me to pick it up in 3 days which i did, and he also told me that i didn't have to treat the tank because there wasn't enough time for the ich to hatch and get into the tank.

Not true, unfortunately.


the next morning the tang was dieing. the damsels were fine. so the owner tells me (even knowing that i have 3 of his damsels) that he thinks the damsels killed the tang.

Damsels are very aggressive an may have possibly killed your Tang. But tangs are very succeptible to Ich so it could have been that.

well there goes more of my money. he makes a deal and lets me trade in the damsels and gives me partial credit for the tang, so i bought a dog-faced puffer that i fell in love with....

As mono said, it looks like a Arothron manilensis. Please tell me your tank is a bare minimum of 75 gal, preferabley 90 gal or more??

within 3 days...low and behold he got ich. i can't understand it. i have done everything the owner has told me to do in regards to my tank set up. the water continues to test fine.

The water may test fine. The cycsts will still be in your tank though.

so here it is a week and half later and i've been keeping my baby alive with daily f.w. dips, daily partial water changes (getting very expensive with the salt usage), and half doses of Rid Ich. i read that puffers can't have the full dose because it burns their skin. I have also been soaking his shrimp in crushed garlic because i read that it detours parasites.


well.....the ich is still going strong, though it looks as though it's not burried in the skin, but "floating" slightly attached to the coating on his body...if that makes any sence at all. to my surprise the fish is still alive.

my ammonia levels went up because i haven't been able to use my carbon.

I never run carbon and never had any issues with ammonia. We need to know how long your tank cycled before added any fish.

i'm worried about that, even though i used AmQuel. i dont' know how long the tank can go without active carbon before my biological filtration dies off. i've read about lowering the salinity, but i'm so afraid of doing that too fast, or for too long of a period and shocking him, and everyone has a different s.g. to use. any more suggestions? i just want this one fish to live and have a happy life. i don't even think i'm going to add other fish...ever. it's too much stress. i lost my starfish when i removed it to do the treatment. i don't have a lot of extra money right now, but what is the outcome of uv sterilizers? :help:

Have added some comments above in red. It might help us a bit if you could tell us more about your setup. Size of tank, current parameters what kind of water you use etc.
 

AndyKatz

AC Members
Apr 24, 2008
16
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65
Welcome aboard, Davina.

Sorry to learn about your troubles. Although I'm relatively new to this forum, my wife and I have been keeping dogfaces for years now. Our current tank is about 14 months old, a fowlr with a dogface, three damsels and two triggers.

Dogfaces do seem prone to ich. In the past we used Mardel's Coppersafe with excellent results. We had started the tank with live rock, cannister filters and tap water. Over time we decided to switch to R/O filtered water and install an ultraviolet filter. That was three months ago. We haven't had any obvious disease since then.

Regarding your tank, it's impossible to say for certain what's going on without knowing more about your water parameters--temp, salinity, nitrates/trites, etc.. My understanding is that ich is so ubiquitous that only way to prevent outbreaks is to maintain good water quality and avoid stressing the fish.

One thing that strikes me is your comments about ammonia levels rising. There oughtn't to be any ammonia, not a trace, in such a well-established tank. Nor does carbon really address ammonia. There are media on the market that reduce or eliminate ammonia, but these ought to be reserved for emergencies only. A properly cycled tank transforms ammonia into nitrites and nitrites into nitrates, the last far less toxic to fish.

So, why do you have ammonia in your tank?
That alone will stress your puffer and weaken its natural resistance to parasites (damsels are tough enough practically to swim in pure Windex;-).

It is likely that your tang's demise was due to damsel intervention. They are quite aggressive. But tangs are also very sensitive to poor water quality.

Before thinking about UV sterilizers, you should address the presence of ammonia and the apparent lack of a proper water cycle.

Andy
 

davina

Never too smart to learn more!
Jul 14, 2008
40
0
0
Orange County, CA
www.myspace.com
Wow, so much good information guys. Thanks for responding...and thank you for letting me know my species! I looked for hours trying to find out what type of puffer he was because I had never seen one with stripes before. And i'm telling you...i am in love with this little guy. I guess any puffer owner could testify to that! He really is just like one of my puppies. I actually have lost a porcupine puffer and spotted dog-face in the past which crushed me.

Ok, i'm going to try and answer all the questions you guys had the best I can. I did post my tank setup, but i'm new to this forum, so i don't know if you guys have access to it.

#1) It is a 60 gal. TruVU acrylic tank...with ONLY the puffer now. He is about 4-5 inches nose to tail. I took the damsels back to the guy because i didn't want them killing any other fish i got. and my cc starfish died when i put it in a smaller container to treat the puffer (which i had it for 1.5 years. i had removed it once before for treatment and it did fine) :wall:

#2) the tank has been cycled for over a year and half. i have crushed coral substrate and lots of live rock. i use a cascade 700 canister filter and protein skimmer (which has never collected protein in all the years i've had it). i have both the white spectrum and the blue spectrum bulbs that i keep on all day (hopefully not a problem?). I also have 2 airstones at each end to keep the water surface moving.

#3) The nitrates and nitrites levels are 0ppm. The ammonia (before i added the AmQuel) was .25ppm and still reads that because the test won't detect the change- it says. The ph is 8.3 because i use a buffer. The salinity is 1.022. (I believe the fish shop keeps theirs at 1.018, but he told me my s.g. was fine). The temp is 78-79F (the shop owner told me to keep it raised to 80 for the summer months??) Also to note: when i add any fish i do the 1/2 hour acclimation where i gradually add my tank water to the water it is in from the shop...trying to avoid this kind of thing!

I have never had an ammonia spike before because i never over-stocked the tank. so my only guess is now that i have the puffer, i have been feeding him large raw shrimp with the shell on. i remove what he doesn't eat right away, but man...can he excrete waist!! :headshake2: PLUS, i've been doing the partial water changes daily anyway for the Rid Ich treatment, so why the ammonia went up, idk. Could using the garlic soaked food have wiped out my bio filter? I wouldn't think it would.

#4) addressing the ich...granted my ammonia level actually is ok (though i can't tell with the test kit now) The ich is weird in this case with the puffer. in the beginning it was as it is with scaled fish...looked as though it was embedded in the skin. since i have been treating him with the Rid Ich at half dose (most likely not as affective at wiping it out) it seems to be just laying on the outer layer of slime coating on the puffer. it seems to just free float on the slime??? it's confusing me, because i'm not sure whether to keep treating it, or maybe it's dead and the fish is just collecting the debris on it's coating. but he is still bashing against the rocks from time to time...leading me to believe it is still on him and bothering him. he actually got about a 3" cut down the side of him from doing that :( . I HAVE BEEN TREATING HIM SINCE THE 3rd OF JULY, so 11 days so far.

As far as his behavior goes, not really knowing his personality before he got the ich, it's kinda hard to tell. I think he is doing ok based on what I've read from articles like this one http://www.reefnut.com/Puffer%20Article.htm . He has his favorite spot against the wall under a live rock(which is at the end of my aquarium because it comes out from the wall length-wise and is double sided). He pretty much stays there until he gets hungry then comes out and begs for food. He's not scared of me and it's pretty easy to catch him for his f.w. dips, but shouldn't he be swimming more instead of hiding all day?

Talk to you soon! Thanks again guys!
Davina

Here is how he looks until he comes out for food. You can see what I'm talking about a little with ich on top of his head and a little on the top of his eye. The amount of the ich changes all the time, and he seems to do better after his dips.



And here is how big the tank is. You can see the silhouette of his body in the far back corner under the rock on the ground.

 

MonoSebaelover

Anableps
Apr 20, 2001
1,410
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0
Phoenix, AZ
www.shiredalefarm.com
Does he have it on his tail too? From the first photo, it looks more like just sediment from the tank, they have a pretty slimy coat that picks up lots of sediment, etc. It might be ich also but not as easy to tell. When I had my manilensis (I had 2 back in the day.....I just keep fw and bw now) they were out and active all the time. They would go up and down the tank walls. He might be hiding though as he is the only fish in the tank and so there is not enough activity in the tank for him to feel completely safe so will hide. Could easily be because he is weak and stressed from the ich and so he is hiding as a result to avoid predation in the wild.
Do you have good water flow in the aquarium? I can't tell based on the picture and am not familiar with that type of filter, but might not hurt to put a powerhead in to get more water agitation lower in the tank/give more of a current. Also not sure why ammonia is up, unless the tank is going to go through a mini cycle due to the new large waste production. How did you originally cycle the tank? Fishless or with fish? I would watch your nitrAte levels as they should be increasing with a big waste producer. Anyway hope this helps and good luck!
 

Amphiprion

Contain the Excitement...
Feb 14, 2007
5,776
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Mobile, Alabama
Real Name
Andrew
I second the fact that from that picture, it looks like sediment and not ich. How often do you do water changes? You should be doing them on a regular basis.
 

Gangstafish

gangstafish
Dec 10, 2006
427
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long IslandNY
That's not ich. Thats sediment sticking to his very slimy coat. Mine gets sand stuck to him all the time. AQs a matter of fact he looks fine.
 

davina

Never too smart to learn more!
Jul 14, 2008
40
0
0
Orange County, CA
www.myspace.com
Ich or Debris??

Hmmm? Wouldn't that just be my luck? He doesn't have ich, yet I've waisted money on the treatment...not to mention my stress!! haha.

Well, having dealt with ich many, many times before, I'm really quite sure in the beginning he did have it. It wasn't in clusters, but spread out all over the body, and it was on all his fins and his tail. When I first put him in the tank I could even see bumps under the skin on his back that may have been ich before it turned white and manifested?? But...dog faces do have their spikes under the skin instead of out, so maybe it was that? Heck I don't know.:huh:

But I think that maybe it's coming and going because It does show up on the fins and tail still (but looking more embedded or cloudy in those spots)....if it's debris sticking like you guys think it is, will it stick to the tail and fins? Plus there are always a few spots on the top of his eyeball...slime there as well? It's like I want to just grab him up and wipe it all off to see!

I've been putting the Rid Ich in now for 12 days (again only half dose) and that should be enough time to kill the ich in the tank right? The only thing it says on the bottle is to "continue using it 3 days after the symptoms have disappeared".

As far as the hiding goes, I think I will add a yellow tang or try a blue tang again in a few weeks to give him a mate. I have to buy a q.t. first...no short cuts this time!!

My Filtration

My filter cycles pretty good. It's set up under the tank and cycles 185 gph. I have the exhaust on one end and the intake at the other end of the tank (however I have the exhaust blowing into the wall area instead of to the middle of the tank. i may not need a power head if i turn that around huh?). I keep my fish to a minimum, so it seems adequate and I don't have fluctuations, but the LFS owner says I should switch to the open r/o systems he uses. Well, I've invested so much money in this, and i don't have $400-500 to spend. The filter I have now was $100 at PetCo. I'd rather buy a UV sterilizer to go with it if anything.

My thoughts on my situation as a lesson to others... :idea:

I cycled the tank with damsels in the beginning. Then it set for over a year with just the cc starfish and crabs and snails because I gave up on it after I lost my last batch of fish to ich. That particular time I lost $98 in fish all at once. I always started with damsels, cuz that's what everyone told me do...once the tank cycled and everything looked GO, I added 2 or 3 nice fish and within a week they all had ich and died. And that's been my story over and over. :headshake2:

What I can't understand is I can have 3 damsels in the tank for months and all is fine...then when I add the nice fish...ICH. Maybe the bottom line in all this, and the lesson for people to learn is that damsels are horrible little creatures that stress out the good fish and give them stressed-induced ich?? What do you guys think about that? haha.

That's all I can come up with because my LFS treats all their fish that come in for parasites before they sell them (at least they tell me that), and their fish always look healthy. I get the starter damsels from them too...no ich until I add the good fish. The only time I had luck with damsels was about 4 years ago I had a 40 gal set-up with 3 yellow tails, and a Picasso trigger. Well the trigger certainly wasn't intimidated by the damsels, so I had those fish for about 2 years then switched to a smaller tank (dumb move) and lost them all.

Thanks again guys for all the input! This forum is full of great people who want to help.:grinyes:
 

MonoSebaelover

Anableps
Apr 20, 2001
1,410
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Phoenix, AZ
www.shiredalefarm.com
I would say you have 2 situations going on as for losing fish:
1) Damsels are evil little suckers and they will relentlessly attack new fish that are added into their "kingdom". In the wild the invading fish have plenty of room to swim away and not come into contact with them again. In tanks however the fish can't get away, so they get badgered by the Damsels constantly and get stressed and Ich invades the fish in no time.
2) Since you cycled with Damsels, that is your filters bioload. There is only enough bacteria to support VERY few TINY fish that don't produce a lot of waste compared to say Triggers or Puffers or Eels etc. So when you went and added 2, 3, 4 new fish, you shocked the bacteria which caused it to mini-cycle (bacteria bloom to try and compensate for the new amount of ammonia in the water) and add an ammonia reading to already stressed out fish due to the Damsels and Ich was guarenteed.
So my recommendations for future is: plan the tank ahead of time. What do you eventually want the 60G to be home to? List out your stocking list and then we can help you in the order you should add them. Then only add 1 fish every two to three weeks to allow time for the bacteria to catch up to the new bioload. This way there will only be tiny ammonia spikes rather than one giant one when adding 2-3 fish at a time. Anyway hope this helps and hope this makes sense! Good luck!
 
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