QT/Main tank nightmare

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Asemo

would make out with her dogface.
Feb 26, 2009
16
0
0
Townsville
Hey all,

Over Christmas I went overseas for a few months and sadly had to sell my very first marine tank (the person who bought it told me they were very experienced with marine tanks and then promptly killed all my treasured fish and corals within the first week). I recently came home and, having been unable to keep marine fish and gone mildly crazy, bought a 2nd hand 40 gallon tank to get started again. I'd had too much trouble with corals in the past mainly due to temperature (yay the tropics) so I'm going FOWLR. I set up a 13 gallon quarantine tank with a power filter. I bought a juvenile dogface puffer (Homer ^_^) and put him in the QT tank, where he remained for about a week before the ammonia got completely out of control. Even with the filter running and doing multiple daily water changes I couldn't get it below 1ppm for more than a few hours (I knew they pooped but **** THEY POOP HARD), so I put him in the display tank which had finished cycling (it had a mature filter about 8 months old and was settled within a few days with live rock, I kept adding Stability just in case). Because I was mega worried about ich since puffers are ich bombs, I very closely inspected him for any spots but he had none. He did however have some sort of skin rash which I have since established is completely normal for puffers and went away within a week and a few doses of Melafix.

Before I go on, I am completely aware that the fish I own will absolutely grow out of the 40 gallon aquarium. I am moving in 6 months and have pre-ordered a 150 gallon tank for my babies at my new place. I have made a point of buying juveniles so that I can have fish now to feed the addiction (you know what I'm talking about) and give them a good home when they are fully grown. While waiting for the big tank would have been more responsible, I really have no excuse other than "I really wanted those fish now, and they will be provided for in the near future."

Moving on with my tale of woe, I dumped the dirty water in the QT tank and mixed up a new batch to await the arrival of any new additions. Meanwhile, I noticed Homer had developed some ich-like spots, and made a few decisions that I have regretted wholeheartedly and kick myself every time I think about it because they were utterly retardedly stupid. So before you tell me how idiotic I am, I know and absolutely agree with you.

First, I bought a blue tang i.e. ich bomb #2. Second, I thought "Hey! I have some anti-protozoan medication that can be used in display tanks! Even though I know it's not as effective as copper and hyposalinity I think I'll throw the blue tang in the main tank straight away and treat them both at the same time!". So like an idiot, I did. The two fish bonded very quickly and you'd never see one without the other. It was almost like watching a hideously cute couple in the park saying "I love you more!" "No I love YOU more!". For 2 or 3 weeks, everything was good, the spots disappeared, everything was shiny. In this time, I bought a pair of ocellaris clowns and a bubble-tip anemone, a Siganis virgatus and a long-nosed hawkfish. I put all these guys in the QT tank and dosed it up with copper - this is the only tank where things haven't gone horribly wrong. The anemone of course went in the main tank and affixed itself to the most unnoticable corner of the rockwork. Awesome. Two weeks passed, and on Friday the 13th my puffer and tang suddenly got blitzed by ich. Long story short, my problem is this:
My puffer responds well to the anti-protozoan treatment but my tang hides the entire time and will barely feed. I have taken the tang out, given it a FW bath and placed it into a 2 gallon tank of normal seawater (my QT tank is at full capacity and it is barely a 2 inch fish so I figured it would be okay in a small volume as long as I keep changes going daily). It did not respond well to the bath and has hidden since, is looking very pale in colour, ignores live brine shrimp which it loves usually and is gilling rapidly. The water quality in this little tank is fine. As far as I can see, my options are: 1) to leave the tang in the small tank, hope it doesn't die on me and recovers enough for me to begin ich treatment in there. 2) Move the tang to the QT tank and risk everything in there (currently disease free) getting ich and the tang possibly dying from the stress of capture and being placed in a hyposaline system (I switched to hyposaline from copper treatment because I ran out of copper tests, my LFS ran out of the kits and I don't want to risk over coppering my children). 3) Move the fish in the QT tank to the main tank and the tang into the QT tank so that the tang can be treated separately and hope to God that the anti-protozoan treatment in the main tank will work and won't freak them out like the tang. Also, my anemone is not happy about the main tank treatment and I'd like to move it into the 2 gallon for the duration of the treatment which is only possible in option 3.

None of these options is particularly awesome, so I would really appreciate some advice, and maybe even better options! Sorry this is long-winded but I know detail is important. My main tank water parameters are good (nitrates are at 5ppm, everything else is 0, pH is 8.2 - in any case pretty good for FOWLR). I have my main tank, the 13 gallon QT tank with a power filter, 2 gallon tank with a corner filter and a 5 gallon bucket at my disposal as possible tanks. I have 3 air stones that can be operated at the same time. Please help!

Also, please avoid bagging me out about my myriad of stupid decisions, I am fully aware that I have been a distinctly retarded aquarist.
 

cellodaisy

AC Members
Jan 11, 2009
1,175
0
36
Cincinnati OH 45219
meganstrickland.com
I know absolutely nothing about marine tanks (well, okay, not nothing... I think they have water in them...), but it seems to me right now that there are three important things:

1) Your main tank is okay.
2) Your QT is okay.
3) Your tang was not okay in the main tank and is not okay now, so there's no guarantee that it would be okay somewhere else.

I guess I'd lean toward controlling the damage and leaving the tang isolated rather than risking your other tanks & fish.

Good luck!

(Now, someone who actually knows something, please explain how I've got it all wrong. :))
 

Asemo

would make out with her dogface.
Feb 26, 2009
16
0
0
Townsville
Yeah, this is the conclusion I've come to for the moment. I really love my little tang but don't want to risk reinfecting everything. Thanks for your input, even a little reassurance is nice right now!
 

Asemo

would make out with her dogface.
Feb 26, 2009
16
0
0
Townsville
My tang died, I think the stress was too much for her. Poor thing, I hate it when my fish die, I have a responsibility to look after them after they're taken from the reef so I can learn and discover new things that may benefit them in the future... When they die it's such a waste.
 

redfishblewfish

Ignorance Specialist
Nov 19, 2008
313
0
0
69
Central New Jersey
My thoughts:

  • Ich is a freshwater disease. For saltwater, it is crypto (Cryptocaryon).
  • Crypto is bought on by stress. Since you say water quality is fine, I think part of the stress is a poor diet. Two things: Brine shrimp have minimal nutritional value and, for the tang (not sure about the puffer), its primary diet is algae. Tangs do and will eat meaty foods, but their primary diet should be algae. In addition, and I know it can be hotly debated, I would include garlic. Our LFS now sells algae strips containing garlic. It supposedly boosts the immune system. So, to summarize: dump the shrimp; get a more nutritious meaty food; get an algae clip and start feeding algae; add garlic.
  • I’m not big on additives, such as copper. Since you have a FOWLR, and assuming you have no inverts, I’d run the whole tank hypo for 6 – 8 weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish as well and I think adds additional stress over hypo (my personal feelings).

EDITED TO ADD: as I was typing you posted that the tang passed....sorry to here that.
 

Kashta

Always Niko's fault.....
Jun 24, 2008
4,676
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0
USA West Coast
Real Name
Susan
Oh nooo. I'm so sorry, Asemo. It sounds like you tried everything you could. But even the best care/advice isn't always enough. It's still very sad when this happens.
 

Amphiprion

Contain the Excitement...
Feb 14, 2007
5,776
0
0
Mobile, Alabama
Real Name
Andrew
My thoughts:

  • Ich is a freshwater disease. For saltwater, it is crypto (Cryptocaryon).

  • Crypto is bought on by stress. Since you say water quality is fine, I think part of the stress is a poor diet. Two things: Brine shrimp have minimal nutritional value and, for the tang (not sure about the puffer), its primary diet is algae. Tangs do and will eat meaty foods, but their primary diet should be algae. In addition, and I know it can be hotly debated, I would include garlic. Our LFS now sells algae strips containing garlic. It supposedly boosts the immune system. So, to summarize: dump the shrimp; get a more nutritious meaty food; get an algae clip and start feeding algae; add garlic.

  • I’m not big on additives, such as copper. Since you have a FOWLR, and assuming you have no inverts, I’d run the whole tank hypo for 6 – 8 weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish as well and I think adds additional stress over hypo (my personal feelings).

EDITED TO ADD: as I was typing you posted that the tang passed....sorry to here that.
1). Saltwater ich or whitespot, or Cryptocaryon irritans--they all mean the same thing for all intents and purposes. When someone says "ich" and they have a marine aquarium, it is understood that one is dealing with Cryptocaryon spp.

2). Not necessarily true. While stress certainly doesn't help the situation and can easily make a fish more "susceptible," it is not brought about by stress. It is brought about by exposure to the parasite. Even perfectly healthy fish can be infected if the infestation is high enough. While most tangs eat primarily algae, blue tangs are one of the few exceptions. They primarily eat zooplankton, though algae is still important in their diet and should be fed to them. It just isn't quite as important as in other species. There is little beyond anecdotal evidence that garlic does much for any parasites. On the other hand, there is emerging evidence that the fatty acids in many terrestrial oils (like garlic oil) can be harmful to fish, since they cannot be metabolized properly. I do agree about the brine shrimp, however. Asemo, you should look into finding other foods and broadening the diet a bit. While you say water quality is fine, could you give us a run-down of all the necessary parameters, like salinity (they are in hypo now, correct?), pH, ammonia, nitrite (more of a problem in hypo), temp, etc.?

3). I can agree here. I generally do not like copper and try to avoid it as a last resort, though it can be done safely if the necessary measures are taken. If the other fish are in quarantine under hyposalinity, there is no need to do the same to the display. If it remains fallow for the same period of time, then the parasites will be gone.

I am also sorry to hear that the tang has passed away. On the good side, you do realize your errors.
 

Asemo

would make out with her dogface.
Feb 26, 2009
16
0
0
Townsville
Like Amphiprion said, I am fully aware that marine ich is Cryptocaryon (we get all kinds of interesting diseases drilled into us in aquaculture at uni!). What he said about it being not all to do with water quality is also true.

I am giving all my kids a good diet to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong because this is important to me. I feed my puffer live baby prawns, frozen prawns, squid, mussels, nori (he loves it more than my tang did), mysis, spirulina-enriched Artemia, frozen zooplankton tows, the occasional marine algae-fed feeder fish (FW) and frozen algae. I give my other fish a mixture of the foods above (not the huge puffer-specific ones obviously).

I have removed the anemone to my 2gal after doing a complete water change after the tang died in it so I can hypo the main tank. Does anyone know if anemones are big waste producers? I will of course monitor water quality, but I want to know whether I should be super vigilant or have room to breathe. My main tank is in the middle of being dropped to 1.012 sg (my puffer is in there and I don't have a QT big enough/a spare filter to accomodate the immense amount of poop he does despite trying to make him diet a bit to cut down on it - otherwise I would move him out and let the tank go fallow) so that will be the final salinity there. The pH is 8.2, Ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, nitrate is 10ppm, temp is 26 degrees Celsius. I wasn't aware nitrite was a problem with hypo, that's very interesting! Why is this so, I'd love to know!

My QT tank is at 1.012 sg, pH 8.4, Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate 0, temp 26. I do very frequent (2x daily) water changes on it since I am aware of the limitations of the filter I have and the number of fish in there. I am considering moving my longnosed hawkfish to the main tank in a few days (once the main tank meds and hypo kick in) to relieve the QT tank a little, since they are faily disease resistant. I wouldn't do it without the advice of someone more knowledgable though. I don't want to infect a healthy fish.

On a side note, I used copper religiously because my friend who got me into marine tanks considered it the best thing since being able to keep fish. With what I've read over the past few days, I'm going to be using hypo from now on to treat my new fish! It's much less terrifying!

Thanks for all your help and sympathies :) It is so wonderful to be able to post on an aquarium forum without everyone going all out to rip apart my pride and joy because I'm "doing it wrong".
 

Amphiprion

Contain the Excitement...
Feb 14, 2007
5,776
0
0
Mobile, Alabama
Real Name
Andrew
Like Amphiprion said, I am fully aware that marine ich is Cryptocaryon (we get all kinds of interesting diseases drilled into us in aquaculture at uni!). What he said about it being not all to do with water quality is also true.

I am giving all my kids a good diet to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong because this is important to me. I feed my puffer live baby prawns, frozen prawns, squid, mussels, nori (he loves it more than my tang did), mysis, spirulina-enriched Artemia, frozen zooplankton tows, the occasional marine algae-fed feeder fish (FW) and frozen algae. I give my other fish a mixture of the foods above (not the huge puffer-specific ones obviously). <<Good mix. Keep it up.>>

I have removed the anemone to my 2gal after doing a complete water change after the tang died in it so I can hypo the main tank. Does anyone know if anemones are big waste producers? I will of course monitor water quality, but I want to know whether I should be super vigilant or have room to breathe. My main tank is in the middle of being dropped to 1.012 sg (my puffer is in there and I don't have a QT big enough/a spare filter to accomodate the immense amount of poop he does despite trying to make him diet a bit to cut down on it - otherwise I would move him out and let the tank go fallow) so that will be the final salinity there. The pH is 8.2, Ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0, nitrate is 10ppm, temp is 26 degrees Celsius. I wasn't aware nitrite was a problem with hypo, that's very interesting! Why is this so, I'd love to know!<<That is small for an anemone, as they can excrete substantial amounts of waste, especially if fed well. Keep a very close eye out, as there isn't much room to breathe in this situation. At any rate, nitrite ion toxicity decreases with an elevated chloride ion content, as it competes for the same cellular channels. In other words, if you have enough chloride (more than enough in seawater, as it is the most abundant ion), nitrite is non-toxic for all intents and purposes, unless you add many hundreds of ppm of nitrite ion. After throwing around some numbers, I was a bit hasty with the recommendation. it appears that at the necessary salinity for hypo treatment, nitrite ion concentration would have to exceed 80 ppm to be of concern. FWIW, you should be lowering the specific gravity closer to 1.009 @25 Celsius to get the proper treatment. Be sure to remove live rock, as the hyposalinity will kill much, if not all, of the infauna.>>

My QT tank is at 1.012 sg, pH 8.4, Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate 0, temp 26. I do very frequent (2x daily) water changes on it since I am aware of the limitations of the filter I have and the number of fish in there. I am considering moving my longnosed hawkfish to the main tank in a few days (once the main tank meds and hypo kick in) to relieve the QT tank a little, since they are faily disease resistant. I wouldn't do it without the advice of someone more knowledgable though. I don't want to infect a healthy fish.<<Continue lowering s.g. Don't add the hawkfish, since it will break the fallow cycle. If you have to, buy a rubbermaid container as another quarantine tank--do what you have to to make sure nothing gets infected. If you insist on hypoing the display, then you could proceed, but note the above about the rock you paid for...>>

On a side note, I used copper religiously because my friend who got me into marine tanks considered it the best thing since being able to keep fish. With what I've read over the past few days, I'm going to be using hypo from now on to treat my new fish! It's much less terrifying!<<Agreed, and good plan. Copper, especially chelated copper, can be very safe if done properly, however.>>

Thanks for all your help and sympathies :) It is so wonderful to be able to post on an aquarium forum without everyone going all out to rip apart my pride and joy because I'm "doing it wrong". <<HOpe this helped>>
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