Red Lines in GoldFish

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GokulK

AC Members
Apr 15, 2009
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Hi all,

I see red/darkred lines/inflammation under the jaw and under belly.Esp along the joins and fins. I am treating them with Tetracycline tablets with flakes every day.

Details of the tank,
Live Stock - 2 Orandas,1 Red Cap & 2 Black Moor
Tank Capacity - 65 Gallon
Now running a Bare Bottom Tank + Filter(carbon removed) + water change dialy + Salt + ammonia 0.
They are housed in this tank for last one year without any trouble.

After feeding flakes with tetracycline they seems to be active,but red lines doesnt seem to go.

I suspect it could be either Flukes/Internal Parasite or Red Pest!! Am I correct?
Can I treat them with Acriflavine? Whats the dosage?
Please advice

I will try to post the photos soon.


Thanks
Gokul
 

Kashta

Always Niko's fault.....
Jun 24, 2008
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USA West Coast
Real Name
Susan
Welcome Gokul!

Given the number of goldfish you have (now at over a year in age) and the tank capacity they're kept in leads me to believe the initial symptoms they displayed have lead to a more advanced bacterial infection.. fin rot, septicemia.

To avoid this chain of events from getting started and progressing this way, we recommend 15 gallons of water per goldfish (fancies like orandas and moors) and 20 gallons of water per goldfish (for pond types like commons and comets) -- as a minimum based on their adult size. In addition to tank size, we also recommend at least double if not quadruple the usual level of filtration a tropical tank of equal size would need. This combination of large tank volume/size plus heavier filtration lets us maintain their environment equally with normal maintenance (filter cleaning, weekly water changes, and so on) as we would do with any other standard tropical community fish tank.

As goldfish start out so small when they are purchased, that often seems like an excessively large rule of thumb to follow for most people. "Really? I need a tank that big for just a few small fish??" And the answer to that question is... "Yes, you do". This really is what they need for healthy long-term care.

Because goldfish grow so fast to get this large within the first year of age, they effectively outgrow the tank they are in. And what originally seemed adequate for their health and well being all those preceding months is no longer the case. As in the comment you've made here:

They are housed in this tank for last one year without any trouble.

Using the 15-gallon estimate for the 3 orandas + 2 moors you have would give us a minimum tank size requirement of at least 75 gallons (minimum) to keep everyone healthy. It may not seem this way to you, but the 65 gallon tank has become overstocked and overcrowded for the 5 goldfish you have. Even with excellent water quality (which it may or may not be anymore), these conditions lead to high stress and a weakened immune system.. and this makes them susceptible to bacterial infection, parasites, and other common diseases.

Red lines, streaks, or blotches in the tail and finnage is an early warning sign that highly stressful conditions exist -- and fish that are prone to serious health problems if these conditions are not corrected right away. The fins maybe begin to also split, fray, or degrade. Even with medication this condition can spread further because the underlying cause of the problem (overcrowding, tank too small, inadequate filtration, poor water quality) has not changed. In reality, we are only treating the symptoms -- not the cause. And the originating problem that started this has not been corrected.

I see red/darkred lines/inflammation under the jaw and under belly.Esp along the joins and fins. I am treating them with Tetracycline tablets with flakes every day.

After feeding flakes with tetracycline they seems to be active,but red lines doesnt seem to go.

I would surmise that the stress/conditions lead to a bacterial infection. (What begins visibly with the finnage will enter the body itself as the infection spreads. Septicemia is infection through the bloodstream). The inflammation/etc. that you saw under the jaw and belly shows the infection went that far before your treatment started.

You began treatment using tetracycline, which has helped enormously and may have saved the lives of your fish at this more advanced stage because it's keeping the current infection in check. But this is only a temporary measure that has slowed the process for the present time. The red lines aren't going away because the root cause of these problems (tank size/etc.) remains the same. You should continue your current treatment to keep the infection from spreading... and do whatever you can to place these fish in larger quarters as fast as possible.

If you can set up quarantine tanks for 1 or 2 of the fish either together or separately... then leave 3 of them in the 65 gallon where they are now. Keeping all 5 of them together in this tank isn't going to work anymore. If you can't manage a very fast upgrade or provide large QT places for some of them, you might have to choose between them at this point to avoid losing them all.

I suspect it could be either Flukes/Internal Parasite or Red Pest!! Am I correct?
Can I treat them with Acriflavine? Whats the dosage?
Please advice

It's hard to tell what other problems may also be present. What you've described to us already is enough to explain the known problems and why your treatment so far has showed some very positive signs of improvement. So far, so good! Given the situation, you've done a great job with this.

As a word of caution, though... it's very easy for us to go looking for new diseases/parasites that aren't even there to explain lingering problems (symptoms) that hang on because basic conditions they're in haven't improved. We're also much too quick to medicate for problems that don't exist, which isn't going to help at all. Adding more meds and treatment for parasites isn't the answer. If you can solve the overstocked tank issue and provide high quality water conditions for them, your fish will then be able to fully recover from this with no other (new) forms of treatment necessary. At that point, yes.. I would also watch for signs of parasites or anything else that seems unusual.

Your goldfish are on their way to better health. Good luck with this... keep asking questions you might have... and let us know how well things go.
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
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Deep in the heart of texas
Welcome Goku! Good to have you here. :thm:

As hard as it may be to believe that overstocking is the underlying problem here, because the tank may look really big enough, it is absolutely true about goldies needing the extra large room.

Kashta is truly an expert in Goldfish keeping. She is one of this forums moderators and you get selected for that position based on your expertise, not to mention a sincere desire to help others and share knowledge and experience with forum members. Flaringshutter is another moderator specializing in goldfish.

Do your best to follow their advice. It can save your fishes lives, and your peace of mind.

Again, welcome to AC.:welcome:
 

Flaringshutter

Befriend a feeder!
Oct 17, 2006
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Southern California
Hey Gokul,
I agree with Kashta in that the tank capacity is too small - but not by much, so I suspect there is another factor as well. Red fins and an overall pinkish appearance is definite septicemia, especially when combined with torn fins. However, red at the fin bases and on the belly can be a symptom of nutritional problems. What have you been feeding your fish, and how often?

You mentioned that you are doing daily water changes. Is that your regular schedule or simply something you started when you added the tetracycline? If it is your regular schedule, can you tell us why?

For now, I suggest you continue the tetracycline. It is a solid antibacterial that will help with any internal issues, especially since you are administering it as medicated flakes. I definitely do not think this is a parasite/flukes issue. Continue with your water changes. You can also try varying the diet and see if that makes a difference in your fish - try giving them some romaine lettuce, cucumber, parsley, frozen bloodworms, etc.

If you can post some photos, that will help us identify the problem. Best of luck.
 

serissime

second-guessing
Nov 24, 2008
490
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If you've got Flaringshutter and Kashta helping you, you're definitely going to get through this. Good luck! I hope your goldies feel better soon!
 

GokulK

AC Members
Apr 15, 2009
8
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So many thanks Guys.
I am extremely impressed the way I have got my first reply. Thanks to all again.

Earlier I make water changes twice in a week. But after the red lines appearing,I removed all the substrate and treating them with antibiotic food dialy. Most of the time Peas,Apple or little flakes all mixed with Tetracycline.

I too agree the tank is small for them,but they are still not adults only 2 of the orandas and one black moor are adults rest of them are just small. Anyways I have plans to upgrade the tank soon.
Between as you all suggested I will continue to follow the treatment. Meanwhile I will try to upload the photos tonight.

Thanks Guys
Gokul
 

GokulK

AC Members
Apr 15, 2009
8
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Photos Attached

Hello Again,

To diagnose better I have uploaded the photos. Here is the link http://picasaweb.google.co.in/gokulakannank/SickFishes?authkey=Gv1sRgCKem7-jWucr8YQ#

It is a black moor, with red inflammation under the jaws and under the belly. For Oranda and Red Cap the inflammation intensity is more and clearly visible under the jaws.(I tried to net them to take some snaps, felt should not stress them more).
I am treating them with Tetracycline daily mixed with the food. But I see no improvement, I started the treatment 4 days back. I add one capsule (500) daily and after making a water change daily.

What exactly the problem is? Sometimes I feel it could be an ulcer or some infection!! Help me to diagnose correctly. Any advice will be really helpful.

Thanks
Gokul
 

Kashta

Always Niko's fault.....
Jun 24, 2008
4,676
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USA West Coast
Real Name
Susan
Looks like the redness is another sign of the internal bacterial infection that you've begun treating already. Give that some time to keeping working. I'm hopeful you'll soon notice the redness starting to go away.
 

Flaringshutter

Befriend a feeder!
Oct 17, 2006
1,870
0
0
Southern California
Well, the photos make clear that this is definitely not septicemia - the entire area would be much pinker. I don't think it's nutritional problems either. There is no blood streaking in the fins and the redness is in the wrong area. I think Kashta's on to something - it may be an internal bacterial problem that is being helped by the tetracycline. How is the fish's behavior? Any improvement?

You mentioned inflammation - is the entire body cavity swollen up, like the fish are ready to burst? We might be looking at worms in the body cavity. The scales are still smooth against the skin, so it's not dropsy. Are the fish still eating? If they're still active and feeding normally, but look quite bloated, it could be worms.

Give the tetracycline another week to work, and then if you still don't see any improvement you might try switching from tetracycline to mebendazole in the food. Sometimes you can buy premade medicated food for internal parasites that contains mebendazole, sometimes you can buy it separately and mix it yourself. That will at least kill off the worms, if indeed it is worms.

Would you mind posting your water parameters, and telling us what sort of test kit you use? That would help a bit. This could be simple irritation due to nitrate buildup or ammonia poisoning.
 

GokulK

AC Members
Apr 15, 2009
8
0
0
Thanks to both of you.
I will continue to do tetracycline treatment for sure.

Fishbehavior - Normal,they are active.
Are they Feeding - They are quite hungry,asking to feed'em all the time.
Swollen Up - No.

Test Kit Results -
Temperature - 26C
pH - 7
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 30
Nitrite - 1

Thanks
Gokul
 
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