Black Moor Death

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OscarLuver

AC Members
May 21, 2009
12
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Iowa
I awoke this morning to find my black moor dead. I was wondering if you could all help me identify WHY he died.

The water perimeters are great. 7.4 pH, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, about 10ppm Nitrate. I know our water is a bit hard though have never tested specifics.

We purchased him about two weeks ago and a week ago he developed Ich (he was the only one with signs of it) I immediately treated but I ran out of RidIch and was forced to raise the tempurature and salt the tank instead. (Unfortunatly I've been living paycheck to paycheck lately :( )

Larry (the black moor) seemed fine, two days the parasites were gone and I continued treatment for anouther 3 days to make sure. The other fantails were fine. Temp slowly got changed back to normal 76 degrees.

My friend reminded me that this fish store he was bought at was the same I had bought an oscar from previously who mysteriously died.

Last night I did a 25% water change and cleaned my HOB. Before I went to bed I tested the water (its a habit of mine after water changes) and the water was fine. No nitrites, no ammonia, no chemicals that would cause alarm.

The moor had no external wounds, no indication as why he died. Again the other fish are fine.

When we got Larry he enjoyed laying around with brief spurts of activity. I was informed this was normal. Now I think purhaps not. But he was always so spirited and always ate, he ate last night before the water change as well.

Anyone see a glaring clue as to why he passed? Was I shafted again by that fish store? Is there a problem I'm not seeing.
 

BettaFishMommy

finkids make me happy :-)
Mar 17, 2008
5,354
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Deadmonton, lol, Canada
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Sherry N.
i would be inclined to think that Larry had health issues prior to you bringing him home, and they were just not visible.

when treating for ich, it is a good idea to continue medicating a full week after symptoms are gone, just to be sure you got it all. 3 days may not have been sufficient, and the switch in treatment may have been a factor as well, contributing additional stress, which may have been enough to cause Larry to go to the big fishbowl in the sky.

maybe a good idea to find a different, more reputable lfs to buy your fish from. it is also a very good idea to quarantine all new fish for at least a month in a separate tank so that any health problems they may have will not be passed on to your other fish.
 

BettaFishMommy

finkids make me happy :-)
Mar 17, 2008
5,354
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62
Deadmonton, lol, Canada
Real Name
Sherry N.
thanks Lup, everyone here has been great teachers over the past year!
 

Kashta

Always Niko's fault.....
Jun 24, 2008
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USA West Coast
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Susan
I'm so sorry you lost your black moor, OscarLuver. I hope you get another one and wish you the best of luck with all your goldies. Thank you for posting about this as you've done. By openly discussing both our successes and our losses, we all learn more about goldfish keeping in the process.

BFM's advice is correct and I'll add here a few more specific comments.

Ich is referred to as a common disease, but it's a parasitic reality that exists as a danger to all goldfish... it doesn't matter how healthy a goldie may be or from where it was purchased because it's always present. All it takes is a little bit of added stress for an ich flare up to occur. So, buying even a healthy, disease-free goldfish (anywhere) or receiving one by shipment and transferring it to a new or established aquarium (or quarantine tank) is enough to sufficiently stress your new fish that a mild outbreak of ich should come as no surprise. For this reason, I would be reluctant to hold your LFS to blame for selling you a goldfish that develops ich a week later. There's truly nothing they can do to prevent this from happening.

As for treatment and the details you've provided... there are a few points to be made. Using ich medications sold in pet stores should not be your first step when treating goldfish. A salt treatment is usually more effective, more reliable, and is a preferred method because it's a lot gentler to the goldfish. Whereas, many of the commercial products sold can push an already sick or distressed goldfish over the edge. This fact, alone, could explain what happened with your moor.

Temperate/coldwater fish like goldfish and koi are much better able to tolerate salt concentrations high enough to eliminate ich compared to most tropical species. This is why ich medications that contain malachite/formalin (such as Rid-Ich and Quick-Cure) are better used for tropicals (in general/with some exceptions). For goldfish, the use of these medications should be your last resort after two full salt treatments have already failed to eradicate the parasite.

I guess you added the black moor to your existing tank (with fantails) without quarantining the new fish first. That's already been pointed out as a mistake, of course, because now you've exposed all of your fish to ich. And it's also been introduced in an active and thriving form to the entire aquarium they're in. Your black moor is gone, but the rest of your fish are also in jeopardy and also need treatment now to keep them safe.

From your post here, I'm not sure exactly how you administered the salt treatment after you ran out of ich medication. Did you thoroughly vacuum the gravel bed, perform a massive water change, and run fresh activated carbon through your filter to remove this medication first before adding salt? That is necessary step to take following treatment with any medication.

As you haven't mentioned how much salt you used, how it was added, or how high you raised the temperature... I'll go over that, too. You do mention the "normal" temperature for this tank is 76 degrees. Once you're done dealing with this ich outbreak, it would be better to lower that temperature a few degrees... ideally to a 70-73 degree range.

When adding salt, it shouldn't be dumped in all at once. For treatment of ich, you want to achieve a 0.3% level of salinity over a period of a day and a half. That works out to a total of 3 teaspoons of salt per gallon. But to do this, predissolve only 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon in some tank water first and add that in slowly (near the filter return). Do this again 12 hours later and once more 12 hours after that. You'll also raise the temperature... slowly... to 78-80 degrees. This should be done gradually, as well... no faster than a couple of degrees per hour until this temperature is reached. This combination of salt and heat is what's needed to kill the parasite but it also stresses the fish a little more than they already were before, so it's also important to keep your tank water pristine.

The salt treatment needs to be maintained for a full 10 days without interruption. You should also perform gravel vacs over the entire bottom on a daily basis during this 10-day period to remove any cysts that have fallen off the fish. This helps reduce the number of free swimming parasites (too small for us to see) during that stage of their life cycle. Also keep track of how much water is removed through water changes during this time so you can replenish the correct amount of salt and maintain the same level.

At this temperatue, the full life cycle for ich lasts approximately 3-5 days. The 10-day treatment is long enough, then, as one treatment covering 2 full life cycles. Once you believe the cysts are all gone, then continue the salt treatment as you've been doing for another 7 days. If you see any indication that ich is still there, start a second 10-day treatment cycle.

It's also highly important to maintain good water quality following treatment because the parasite leaves behind very tiny exit wounds on the host fish that are too small for us to see. This factor combined with the high stress factor can lead to secondary bacterial infection or fungus. So continue watching your fish for new symptoms in case something new develops.

Once this is all done, return the tank temperature to 70-73 degrees (slowly) and remove the salt gradually as you perform your regular partial water changes.

Let us know through updates to this thread what you decide to do now about this tank and the fantails you already have. If you have questions about anything else (as in stocking, filtration/setup, feeding, or whatever else) feel free to start a new thread, as well. We'd also love to see pictures of your goldfish and tank setup. (And no, it doesn't matter if they're being treated while you take photos.) Good luck and thanks, again, for starting this thread.
 

BettaFishMommy

finkids make me happy :-)
Mar 17, 2008
5,354
2
62
Deadmonton, lol, Canada
Real Name
Sherry N.
very good advice on ich treatment Kashta!



i'm a fence sitter on the "ich is always present or not" theory. there has been discussion on this theory and i still have not made up my mind on what to think of it.

my thoughts are this - if ich is a parasite, i'm not sure how it can it lay 'dormant' in all fish and flare up during stress or illness (if following the 'ich is always present' theory). parasites lay dormant? i was taught that parasites have short, yet very active and opportunistic lifespans, along with always needing a host to survive and propagate. if dormancy is possible, something new i have learned.
 
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