Please don't let it be flukes or something sinister like that...

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corrieberry

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Ugh. I just got Ory back into the main tank after his accident and he is now showing some wierd behaviour which has got me worried. He also exhibited it before but I'm scared cos I researched what it could be in a book that I only got recently and hence couldn't worry about it before.

Basically he lies in one of the corners and just stays there for several minutes at a time - so much so that guests to the house even comment on it, even when they don't know anything about goldfish. When I say several minutes I say that only because several hours would be too much - but it is normally about 15-20 minutes at a time if I don't try get him to move, or if the other fish don't come over to see him.

I thought it might be because he doesn't like the light, but I recently changed the layout of the tank and have a big mass of anarchis floating on the surface now, so there is lots of shade. The lightbulb is new and hence brighter than the old one, but he does it when the light is off as well. It's also always the same corner near the plants he likes to eat the most (long, thin, no idea what they are - get them in clumps as a 'bunch' from the LFS). He did it before he was in QT, but didn't do it for the three weeks he was in the hosp.

Just for reference the new lightbulb is 38W, 7500K and a 'freshwater' bulb that supposedly brings out their colours or something. Before this it was just a normal fluorescent bulb that is used in strip lighting etc - I got it with the tank, the new bulb was a birthday gift. The tank is 55G with two orandas Ellie and Ory, and one fantail, Archie.

When he isn't lying on the bottom he is either chasing Ellie up and down the tank (looks like spawning behaviour to me, he bumps her bum a lot) or eating my plants, or chasing his reflection. Chasing the reflection is something he started during his extended stay in QT (two weeks, then a break of about one day, then another two or three weeks, I can't remember how long).

Could it be flukes or similar? I don't have a microscope...I'm looking into getting one but basically can't afford it.

Tank parameters are normal - nitrates 40, nitrites and ammonia 0, pH 8.0. The nitrates seem a little high to me, I've put more plants in and more filtration as well as using gravel vac thing that came with the tank to vacuum poo and plant bits out the tank every couple of days, but I'm fighting a tap reading of 20. Plants in there are anarchis, anubias, java ferns and some random tall ones which have been in since I got the tank and are just there for lettuce.

The only other thing I've noticed is that his tail and fins are bloodshot - Ellie and Archie are fine, but I've done a 50% WC two days in a row now, and the water quality hasn't changed. I've overdosed on dechlorinator in case it's that. I hope this is just the stress of moving from QT back to the main tank - all was fine before the move.

I'm really worried...I wish he would just be OK! Sorry if I'm worrying unnecessarily...I just really want him to be back to his old self! I feel like it's just been one problem after the other for months. I've only had him for 9 months so I doubt it's age related, although he was in pretty terrible conditions for the first four months before I realised what I was doing to him.

Sorry this post has got so long and rambly. I can't seem to think straight :(
 

Lupin

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It didn't sound like gill flukes to me, Corrie. That's weird. You could treat with praziquantel if you are concerned though. Praziquantel is a mild treatment and does not interfere with the activities much even as it is used against flukes.
 

corrieberry

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Ugh, I'm REALLY sick of this.:mad2: I went away for a few days, and my water change was as a result a few days later than normal (I would normally do it on Saturday morning, but got back Sunday night and only managed to do it on Tuesday night). I noticed Ellie was a bit bloodshot, checked water immediately and did a 70% WC. Parameters then were nitrate 20, pH 8.2 and ammonia and nitrite 0. I have had a really manic week so I haven't had a chance to spend as much time as I would normally.

Today I had a spare half hour, and I got a microscope for my birthday - of course the first thing I wanted to do was try out fish diagnosis. Ellie still had her red bits and I decided to try her - not that I was expecting to find anything, but still. Anyway I couldn't hold her still, so I got Ory instead. He had what a book I bought (Fancy Goldfish: A Complete Guide to Care and Collecting) told me looked like Columnaris. As I wasn't really expecting anything, I was a bit shocked and did a closer inspection.

They all have white spots on them - Ory and Archie really tiny ones on their tails, Archie has one on his dorsal fin. Ellie has a large patch where some scales have come out and it's all bloodshot. I just can't believe I haven't noticed it before on Ellie - I'm not surprised I missed it on the other two as I only noticed when I was specifically looking for it.

Immediately checked water - pH 8.0 (I was a bit surprised it came out at 8.2 on Tuesday - it's normally 8.0), ammonia 0.25, nitrate 20, nitrite 0. Temp is at 22 Celcius, 72 Fahrenheit - that's just room temperature, not much I can do about it.

So now I'm confused. Does it sound like ich? I can't say what their behaviour has been like as I haven't been around to notice it...Ory has still been sitting in his corner though. I would have thought that if it was ich I would have seen it in the microscope? I'm worried the microscope is making me think things are worse than they actually are (or they do have columnaris and ich). I do have a photo of the microscope image but don't have the time or the energy to download it off my bf's computer.

I've attached a photo of Ellie - no point trying the other two as it's so small you wouldn't see it. You can't see the spot on Ellie now, just the bald patch and the redness on her fins.

If it's ich, should I just treat the whole tank? If it's not ich, or it's ich and something, then what? I'll obviously do a WC tomorrow night to try get ammonia down. I have no idea what to do with nitrates. My tap reading is 20, and I keep adding plants and more filters but it doesn't seem to make a dent into the 20. Before I added the java fern a fortnight ago it was always 40. The **** microscope was meant to make me need less help from you guys, not more!! Really sorry I keep going on about them...you must all know what it's like though!

SDC10196.JPG
 

Lupin

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I am not fairly certain this is ich but it could be because Ellie's photo is not convincing me there is ich. Normally, with severe ich infestations, the fish would look like it was sprinkled in salt. I'd advise getting more pics to be more certain. If the white spots look embedded under the skin, then it could indeed be ich. Just for reference, you could use Rid-Ich Kordon or salt to get rid of ich. If I were in this situation, I'd be reaching for salt and dose a tablespoon per 5g. As usual, my regimen for adding salt entails dissolving it thoroughly first in a cup of tank water and add it slowly on 20-30 minutes interval to minimize possible shock from added electrolytes.

Your pH is 8.0 and combining the 0.25 ammonia makes it much worse than when the pH is significantly lower. That does not mean your pH is wrong or anything but it just means the ammonia's toxic effects have been activated and made more toxic in a more alkaline condition hence the bloodshot fins. In this case, I would do a water change until the ammonia is back to zero. The bloodshot fins will eventually recover in 24 hours or even less. Ellie's case is no worse than most fish where the fins look terribly bloodshot already that you would think the fish kept squeezing the blood out of its veins. She has a good chance to recover those bloodshot areas.

As for the bald patch, I am sorry but I cannot see clearly in the photo the bald patch but if I assume it's the square scrape on its flank, could she have scraped herself badly on your polyurethane decorations? This is why I don't like polyurethane decorations in my own goldfish tanks. I just have a phobia for slight scrapes on my goldies fearing the worst all the time from it.

In regards to it being columnaris, I don't see anything indicating columnaris to me other than a book telling you it could be one. Usually with bloodshot areas, it's either poor water conditions or hemorrhagic septicemia (bacterial infection). I think I understood this one. You may have seen the Aeromonas bacteria under the microscope which indicates your fish may have hemorrhagic septicemia associated by poor water conditions as seen based from your test kit results. Are they breathing heavily at the moment? I'd do plenty of water changes as much as you feel it necessary and if this does not help, antibiotics may need to be administered but I wouldn't advise using it for now. Give it time before we jump on the broad spectrum antibiotics. If possible, prepare the Maracyn and Maracyn 2 aside.

I do not mind in the slightest how many questions you ask, whether you have a microscope or not. What matters to me is the health and safety of your fish. Ask away possible questions that you cannot answer. This is much better than not asking at all and it can open up few possibilities that we may overlook.

Lupes
 

corrieberry

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Well I did a big WC tonight and took EVERYTHING out to vacuum properly. I replanted most of my plants into mugs to make maintainence (sp?!) easier and ended up with a completely different looking tank. I will do another big clean tomorrow to scoop up the bits I missed/escaped an epic two hour long vacuuming sesh. I also finally took all the decorations out, after telling myself everyday that I will. Now what to do with them!

The spots do look embedded under the skin. I'm afraid to treat in case it's nothing and I do more harm than good. I'm a great believer in the less treatment the better. I have attached the microscope images anyway, if you can make head or tail of them that would be good. If not, well I guess it's a good thing I didn't only get it for my fish! The first three are the same image just on different zooms. I can zoom in closer but not on my usb attachment.

I'll attach another photo of Ellie and Archie flirting - you can kind of see the spot but if you don't know exactly where it is might miss it because of the blurriness (maybe Flaringshutter could come take my photos for me?! ;)). It's near the two missing scales just above her pectoral fin (first layer after the gill cover).

07_24_0.JPEG 07_24_1.JPEG 07_24_2.JPEG 07_24_3.JPEG 07_24_5.JPEG SDC10239.JPG
 

Lupin

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Redecorating is indeed messy. I did the same with mine to make maintenance much easier although I have yet to get some porcelain pots to keep the plants intact and place them in my barebottom setup.

Anyway, if the white spots seem to have proliferated a bit, then this could indeed be ich especially the way you described it. If you have sodium chloride with you, now is the time to use it and start a 14-day treatment. I use a dosage of tablespoon per 5g. You can't elevate the temperature too high. I'd just maintain it the way it is and extend salt treatment until the ich are completely eradicated.

Regarding the microscope images, I tried to reread back my intensive references and can only narrow this down to columnaris and glossatella but I am fairly certain this is columnaris.

See microscopic image of columnaris.




Use this for reference as it includes microscope images.
http://www.sera-usa.com/healthy_fish.pdf

If my assumption is correct that this is columnaris, then Maracyn and Maracyn 2 should be in order as I had feared earlier you would likely use as your descriptions fit columnaris to me. I don't know if Maracyn and Maracyn 2 are available there. I am aware UK restricts the use of antibiotics. Which brand could you find that contains erythromycin and minocycline? Nitrofurazone and kanamycin are also other alternatives.

Edit: I had a chat with a friend whose husband is also a biologist. We would like to know what magnification sizes are all those photos. If possible, get a much closer magnification to help better with the diagnosis. So far, we have only theorized bacterial infection in general with slight saprolegnia issue as well in which case kanamycin and methylene blue are recommended. Dose them every other day in three intervals. Do water changes first before you attempt to redose and see if everything goes well. If nothing has improved, redose the medicines again. It would help a lot to aerate the water a little more as well to aid them with their breathing functions.
 
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corrieberry

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When you say a tbsp, do you mean heaped or level? I have Maracyn, but not Maracyn 2 - will go out and see if I can get it today. I think I'll stick to these for the moment - it does look like saprolegnia to me (after googling it!) but the sites I looked at say salt is a treatment for that too? I really can't afford to buy more meds, and they are sooo expensive here. I will have a look for kanamycin though - doesn't methylene blue have copper in it? Don't want to get the snails.

With the Maracyn, shall I follow the instructions on the back? (Keep redosing everyday, then do a WC at the end of the course). Last time I was doing 50% WCs everyday so I wasn't following their instructions.

For the microscope, it's 5x, 10x and 40x. I can get higher (up to 1280x) but not on the USB attachment, which is only the value of the objectives. The PSD you've given me will help!

As for aeration, that will be easy - I put six lines in my tank at different places so I can swap around where my bubbles come from when I get bored. I'll just hook all of them up, voila!

So to summarise - I should do salt, Maracyn I, II and kanamycin if I can get hold of it?
 

corrieberry

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The tank leaked into my cabinet last night through one of the stupid airlines I'd left in that had a hole in the line - no electrical equipment ruined but plenty of other stuff. Ory now has big white growths on his wen. I suddenly realise why lots of people feel like giving up when something like this happens. I've obviously offended someone...or I tortured fish in a previous life and now am getting my punishment.
 

corrieberry

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So turns out I had Melafix, not Maracyn (they both start with M!) and I went to LFS and they didn't have it. So I got two bottles of antifungal fish stuff which I'm able to return if they are incorrect - I don't want to dose with them if they aren't and hence don't want to open them so I can return them. The two are Pimafix and Liquid Fungus Cure, both by API.

The active ingredient of Pimafix is Pimenta Racemosa and it is for "fungus or cottony growth, mouth and body fungus and reddening of fins and body". The liquid fungus cure active ingredients are neutroflavine and povidone/colloid mixture. They are for the same as above except reddening of fins.

I'd appreciate it if someone in the know could let me know ASAP. I still have the melafix too. I had a look at all the meds in the LFS for the active ingredients you told me, Lupin, but couldn't find one that had any of them. Probably under different names, though.
 

Lupin

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When you say a tbsp, do you mean heaped or level? I have Maracyn, but not Maracyn 2 - will go out and see if I can get it today. I think I'll stick to these for the moment - it does look like saprolegnia to me (after googling it!) but the sites I looked at say salt is a treatment for that too? I really can't afford to buy more meds, and they are sooo expensive here. I will have a look for kanamycin though - doesn't methylene blue have copper in it? Don't want to get the snails.
Methylene blue does not have copper sulfate even though it is still toxic to snails as an active ingredient. I would advise getting rid of the snails before you treat.

As for salt, I use it as heap rather than leveled. I should have mentioned that earlier, sorry. The trouble is it is not just saprolegnia that is the issue here. Bacterial infection is also present which renders salt by itself rather useless. With a mixed infection, it's difficult to begin which treatment to use but I'd certainly combine salt for ich and then go with either antibiotic for bacterial infection. With suspected bacterial infection, I'd add the Maracyn 2 to cover gram negative bacteria as well.

With the Maracyn, shall I follow the instructions on the back? (Keep redosing everyday, then do a WC at the end of the course). Last time I was doing 50% WCs everyday so I wasn't following their instructions.
When I treat with antibiotics, I dose with full treatment per water volume and only redose after a water change has been done. This way, the concentration is not elevated too high that it could potentially stress the fish and even produce bacteria resistant to antibiotics.

So to summarise - I should do salt, Maracyn I, II and kanamycin if I can get hold of it?
Don't combine Kanamycin with the two Maracyns. They're different antibiotics and can potentially harm the fish when combined. I only mentioned Kanamycin as an alternative, not as an addendum to any planned treatment.

The tank leaked into my cabinet last night through one of the stupid airlines I'd left in that had a hole in the line - no electrical equipment ruined but plenty of other stuff. Ory now has big white growths on his wen. I suddenly realise why lots of people feel like giving up when something like this happens. I've obviously offended someone...or I tortured fish in a previous life and now am getting my punishment.
Aww...:( Any pics of the wen area?

So turns out I had Melafix, not Maracyn (they both start with M!) and I went to LFS and they didn't have it. So I got two bottles of antifungal fish stuff which I'm able to return if they are incorrect - I don't want to dose with them if they aren't and hence don't want to open them so I can return them. The two are Pimafix and Liquid Fungus Cure, both by API.

The active ingredient of Pimafix is Pimenta Racemosa and it is for "fungus or cottony growth, mouth and body fungus and reddening of fins and body". The liquid fungus cure active ingredients are neutroflavine and povidone/colloid mixture. They are for the same as above except reddening of fins.

I'd appreciate it if someone in the know could let me know ASAP. I still have the melafix too. I had a look at all the meds in the LFS for the active ingredients you told me, Lupin, but couldn't find one that had any of them. Probably under different names, though.
No matter, the Maracyn references may still prove beneficial for others in case they use this thread as one of their references for their own problems.

Unfortunately, Pimafix is best used as preventive treatment than a corrective treatment itself. That is very weak for serious bacterial and fungal infections. Rather than using Pimafix, I'd stick to the combination of salt and kanamycin (if you can get this one).
 
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