From Meds to none - NOW WHAT?

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cptkd

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Nov 4, 2008
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Good day to all - :1zhelp:
Thought I'd post my problem here, seeing as I'm not getting much response or feedback over in the "Freshwater" section...

The dilemna began a few weeks right before "moving date"!
My 20g had a fin/tail rot outbreak along with Fungus.
I was advised to immediately use the Melafix.
I began that course of treatment right away, and a couple days later was further advised to use the Maracyn and Maracyn II along with the Melafix.

I did a course of five days worth of treatment, I did lose two of my Black Phantoms and one of my Corydora's. I am now left with two Black Phantoms and one Cory. I am so sad, and I am now even more confused than ever.

By following the advise from store fellow, and the box directions, I followed up with another five day treatment. Again including the Melafix. I would give them the Melafix in the morning and the Maracyn(s) in the evening.....

What do I do now?
Do I continue to treat for another two days to make it twelve?
Do I stop everything now, water change half, and throw my carbon filter back in?
Is my tank ok now?
My levels are all coming up "bang on" ok,
but I noticed after a short water change yesterday, (I couldn't take it anymore - the bottom was filthy) the water was disgustingly dirty.

I retested everything, and again all "ok"!
Both tanks (well, what's left of the 20g) made the move over ok. It was done really quick, and I doubt they even noticed the difference since it was done in a water change sort of fashion - I was able to leave a fair bit of water in each tank, and we used a Red Flyer wagon to pull it all. Two minute car ride, and water was already pre-prepared at new place from night before....Adjusted just like w/c times!!! :cool:

Anyways, back to my fin/tail issue -
As it stands, my one phantom appears to have some tail re-growth. It's not the beautiful tail she once had since she lost most of the fin part of it, but the tail is still there and attached. She appears to have very red and raw gills, and on occassion appears to be straining for breath. She still hangs out at the bottom and at mid-level, and still swims around pretty good. I'm concerned about the gills and their color - It almost looks like it burns....The other phantom seems completely fine. He lost some of his bottom "skirt" fins, but everything else appears fine with him.
In fact, he's rather aggressive sometimes with the other phantom, almost like trying to kill her! Disturbs me, but then the next minute they're haninging out together like the best of friends...?

As far as the Cory - He has been so quiet and lonely since the loss of his best buddy. The bottom part of his tail appears to still have some whitish fungus stuff attached to it, but it's not like it was looking before. He still comes out to eat some, and then does his "up and down" thing, while flying around the tank - I love it when he does that - ;) LOL! But I'm concerned about everything that's going on and really don't want to lose these guys.... I would like to see the day that I can add the appropriate fish back in to form the schools they used to be in.....

I don't know how this happened? I hadn't brought anything new in, and I'm incredibly diligent with w/c's. I know at one point, a long time ago, I lost a fish and never found his body - Still haven't, so I don't know if he was eaten, or he caused this mess I'm in....

Either way - If anyone can advise me or provide me with some feedback on what to do from here, I'd be so forever grateful!
I'm holding off on throwing in the Maracyns 'til I hear back from some of you, so please help me ASAP if at all possible!

Salt has been suggested to me, but I question whether that is the correct thing to do now - Will it harm my Cory? What procedure should I follow to return the tank back to somewhat 'normal'? Water change with water conditioner, and then salt added to pulled water from the tank? Carbon filter thrown back into the filter, and let 'er rip?
HELP!

Thanking you in advance -
You have no idea how desperate I feel right now about dealing with this correctly!

Smiles & Appreciation :bowing:
KD
 

mel_20_20

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Sep 1, 2008
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I'm sorry to ask if you already posted the info elsewhere, but could you tell us what your parameters are exactly: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, temp, GH and KH if possible

Also, what test kit do you use, strips or liquid testing? Strips most often give inaccurate readings, and are more expensive in the long run. If you are using strips you may be getting false readings. A good liquid test kit is the API Master.

Also, what water conditioner are you using?

If your water quality isn't perfect while they are fighting infection it seriously impairs their ability to recover. Please let us know the params.

Having said that, if you're water is pristine and the 10 days of the two Maracyns hasn't effected a cure then they may be infected with bacteria that may be more resistant, it may have also become an internal infection. Also, there may be a concomitant parasitic infection.

First thing, though, I would want to know that the water doesn't have dectable levels of ammonia, nitrite, and the nitrates at 20ppm or below.

During treatment have you been doing water changes? Please tell us volume and frequency.

I'm so sorry you're having these problems.
 

cptkd

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Nov 4, 2008
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I'm sorry to ask if you already posted the info elsewhere, but could you tell us what your parameters are exactly: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, temp, GH and KH if possible - Ammonia '0' / Nitrate x 2 '0' / PH '7.0' / Temp '78-80' / GH '120' KH '80'
I know my water is on the HARD side, but I wasn't sure how much of a problem that could potentially be....?

Also, what test kit do you use, strips or liquid testing? Strips most often give inaccurate readings, and are more expensive in the long run. If you are using strips you may be getting false readings. A good liquid test kit is the API Master. I use the strips when pressed for time, but ALWAYS use the liquid test kit for Ammonia tests once a week. If problems come up on stick, then I resort to liquid test. And YES, it is the API system for all my testing equip.

Also, what water conditioner are you using? AQUASAFE - Used to use Prime but found my fish prefered the Aquasafe

If your water quality isn't perfect while they are fighting infection it seriously impairs their ability to recover. Please let us know the params. See above

Having said that, if you're water is pristine and the 10 days of the two Maracyns hasn't effected a cure then they may be infected with bacteria that may be more resistant, it may have also become an internal infection. Also, there may be a concomitant parasitic infection. And so what should I do to treat that? Should I try to clear the tank from the previous meds by adding carbon filter back, and trying a bit of salt?

First thing, though, I would want to know that the water doesn't have dectable levels of ammonia, nitrite, and the nitrates at 20ppm or below. All is showing good here where that's concerned... I think

During treatment have you been doing water changes? Please tell us volume and frequency. I did one when I moved, Nov 28th,and removed about 2/3rd's of the tank's water. I had no choice with that one. I did a second one, one week later taking about 50% of the water. Of course I continued along with the treatments. I know some said don't do changes, but I had to. It was just bad in there and with two dying, I felt I had no choice. I stopped using every single med yesterday - Now, I want to remove 5 gallons, add 5 treated with the Aquasafe, and then pull a container out and dilute some salt into and toss it in there... That's what I've gotten as feedback so far over on the other forum... ?

I'm so sorry you're having these problems.
Thank you for caring! And thank you for taking the time to hear it all out...
KD
 

mel_20_20

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Sep 1, 2008
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I think keeping the water pristine through water changes, even when treating with meds, is very important. I think getting the gunk out is important and you were right to do it, but sometimes stirring things up really big can cause spikes, so I would check for that.

I would check all the parameters with the liquid test kit: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, ph, gh, and kh in the tank. Test your tap water for all the above. If the ph and, more importantly, the gh and kh in the tank are close to matching the tap I'd do a bigger water change, maybe 50%, but only if those parameters are pretty close. Especially the gh and kh. Temp matched and conditioned, of course.

Then I would put fresh carbon in to remove any of the meds and any other excessive dissolved organic solids. I'd run that and watch for 24 hours to see if you see any improvement at all.

Get the temp in the tank slowly down to around 76 degrees. Bacteria take off in 77 and above. Extra 02 can help with the comfort level, add an airstone or two if you have that.

The filmy, cottony lesions are a worry, but also I think the red, raw gills are worrisome. I first thought it sounded like ammonia burns, but let's test the ammonia to make sure.

After 24 hours if you don't see any signs of improvement with the fresh water then I would try another round of antibiotics. Especially since you see "fungus" on the fins. Really, this is likely not a fungus at all but a bacterial infection, fin rot can be caused by several bacteria, aeromonas possibly, but you may have Columnaris as well.

To do a double whammy on them I would treat with a good broad spectrum antibiotic, Furan, or maybe Furan 2, and also give them medicated food to treat internally.

Here's a good recipe that they should be tempted to eat. Don't feed any other food while doing this.

Antibiotic Medicated food

1 tablet Tetracycline tablets from Mardel Labs ground into a fine powder.
1 tsp of ground flake food (grind until a powder)
2 tabs of Nutrafin Spirulina Tabslets (ground to a powder)
¼ tsp ground (to a powder) freeze dried blood worms (appx 1 tsp before grinding)
1 envelope Knox gelatin (unflavored)
1 cup dechlorinated water

Bring water to a boil and combine all ingredients in a container with a lid.
Place in fridge for an hour. Take out and stir gently (avoid air bubbles)
Put back in fridge to allow to set. Once food has set freeze half of it. The other half put on a clean plate (I like to use a fresh, un-used Styrofoam plate) and mash with a fork.
Feed fish twice a day what they can eat.

Food will sink to the bottom right away, so any not eaten within 30 minutes take out.

This is great for omnivores, but you could replace ingredients to suit other types.

If you can't do all that you could just get Jungle Labs medicated food for bacterial infection and see if they would eat that. They will find the above recipe much more tasty, however.

Once the fish recover from the infection it may be advisable to treat for internal and external parasites which may have predisposed them to the bacterial infection, but that's down the road.

You may not need to treat with the above antibiotics and medicated food if after the first 24 hours in fresh water they seem better. If you see true signs of improvement at 24 hours* I would do another water change and go another 24 to see if improvement continues. If not, then I would start the above antibiotic protocol right away.

Someone with more experience may come along with better advice, but for now this seems to be the best bet IMO.

* Watch carefully during this time and if things are worsening during the first 24 hours don't wait to start antibiotics.
 
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cptkd

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Nov 4, 2008
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WOW!
Thank you for so much information - For taking the time to deliver it all as well!
I appreciate all that you've included and will try, step by step, to get this back on the right track.
Will do an ammonia check right now, and see where things are at from there -
I did DO a water change earlier - As yourself, I am incredulous at keeping my tanks clean.
I have replaced the carbon filter with a new one, and have the airstone going already. Should I have this going on 'high' or 'lo' pressure?
As far as temp - I will begin decreasing that immediately over the course of the next few hours. Little by little so they don't stress on me....
Will let you know my test results!
I thank you again, so very very much!
KD
 

cptkd

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Nov 4, 2008
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Ok - Ammonia levels are '0' in the tank's water.
The city water is at '0.25'.
My GH, KH are almost exact, PH has slight dif,
so I'm going to do an even bigger water change in the morning -
I've set the water all up already with conditioner and heater... Should be good to go first thing in the AM.
I hope things go ok overnight - I'm rather worried about my one particular black phantom, and worried too, about the other two....

Thanks again for all your help - I'll let you know what happens from here on...

Regards - Kim
 

snoopy65

I am Sam aka Snoopy65
Aug 24, 2008
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Where the ducks walk on the fish, PA
Listen to Mel and do all that she asks you to do. She knows her stuff when it comes to treatment. If I had a disease problem in my tank, she is one of the first I would ask for help. I can only offer support myself, as I have no real experience with disease, but I have my fingers crossed for you.
 

cptkd

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Nov 4, 2008
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Thank you, 'Snoopy'!
That was cute - And good for a chuckle!
I gotta admit at this point, that so far she's been the best at giving me
a realistic hand at getting this back under control - I appreciate that!

Just hope it all goes good from here - Thanks for your support!
It means much!
From me,
and the fish!
 

mel_20_20

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Sep 1, 2008
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Deep in the heart of texas
Thanks for the kind words, Snoop. I hope with all my heart that this will help and your confidence will be warranted.

Kim, I believe that I would go ahead and get the meds in the morning after the water change, make up the food or get the ready made Jungle food, and have everything handy. If by the early afternoon they don't seem to be getting obviously better, or at any time if they seem to be losing ground then I would go ahead and start meds.

If you don't have to use the antibiotics, it's always good to have them on hand for another time. The food can be frozen and should be OK for a few months.

I'll check in the morning to see how things are. I hope your little friends make it back to good health. You're doing a great job! It's good that they have you working so hard for them.
 

Kivstev

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Mar 19, 2009
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Ammonia '0' / Nitrate x 2 '0' / PH '7.0' / Temp '78-80' / GH '120' KH '80'
Your nitrate is 0?

Ok - Ammonia levels are '0' in the tank's water.
The city water is at '0.25'.
You have .25 ammonia in your tap water? :confused:

Can you get a picture of this "fungus"?

It sounds like a clear case of Columnaris - tail rot, red gills (flavobacterium frequently enters and attacks the gill area, followed by necrosis of the gills), white fungus-like areas on the body and fins...
 
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