Extremely distressed newbie

  • Get the NEW AquariaCentral iOS app --> http://itunes.apple.com/app/id1227181058 // Android version will be out soon!

Nischint

Everyone's a critic
Dec 19, 2002
28
0
0
43
Bombay, India
www.jamlikethat.com
And I felt lonely...

I got a whole new room, about double the size of my old one. But it didn't feel like my room. So I lamented to my girlfriend about how I wish I could keep a small pet somewhere who would give me some company. And the smart girl that she is, she gave me a goldfish bowl, roughly 9 inches in diameter, with two angelfish in it, since the store owner didn't have any good goldfish yet.

So that bowl became Atlantis, with Hades and Phera as it's main inhabitants. There was of course, a half inch of gravel called Gravel, a plastic boat with a plastic fisherman in it, called Midas, since he seemed to have caught a goldfish on his line. And of course, I have Aeroguy, the aerator pump of this little present.

I made water changes every week, feed them pellets twice a day and every four days, I fed them tubifex worms for two days. Hades became a little aggressive, wherein if food was introduced, he'd just barge ahead and grab as many pellets as he could in his mouth. I, in my insurmountable naiveness, thought it was quite unfair to Phera, so instead of dropping just two pellets, I dropped in at least six. If it wasn't consumed in 10 minutes, I'd remove the floating pellets with my net.

A little about my room and lifestyle. Since I am home almost all the time, I could take care of the fish. Only at night, for at least 12 hours, the air-conditioning would be on. This resulted in Atlantis getting a little chilly, but when morning came, I switched off the air-conditioning and opened the windows for some fresh warm air to come in.

The angelfish have been alive for a month now, with almost no problems, save the little trouble I had when I fed them worms the first time. There was a lot of brownish foul-smelling water, so I did a water change, while wondering if I should ever feed them worms again. Thing is, the store owner had told my girl, that the pellets were enough for them to survive. But another store owner told me that with only the pellets, the fish would be fine, but they'd never grow unless I fed them worms. So I balanced the two.

Now, after a month, I thought I could use a proper big tank. Unfortunately, my dad decided to help out in this matter. So he arranged for the tank, with a well-known store owner in the city. The length of the tank is 30 inches, the width is 16 inches and the depth is 18 inches. Mathematically, this tank should take in upto 35 gallons or 134 litres of water. However, when I manually filled water using 1.5 litre bottles, the total volume came to 102 litres or 27 gallons. The store owner also sold us a thermostatic heater, a submersible filter, two aerator pumps, one fake plant, some twenty odd live plants (I think they were Anacharis or Myrio phyllum), a whole bunch of gravel (which he said was "clean") and the medicines + de-chlorinating agents + dry food flakes + freeze dried worms + a large net. Total cost? 6000 Indian rupees, roughly about 120 US dollars.

As for the fish, I had in mind this perfect system. I wanted the tank to existent in such a way that it would require minimal care but would still be well-appreciated. To this end, I thought of using two guppies, two goldfish, two platys, two Pakistani or Yo-yo loaches (do they really roll over and play dead?) and two swordtails. Plus I thought I'd add the angelfish in later, something which I regret even contemplating. After all, the fish bowl and the angelfish are a gift from my girl, it would be insulting to her if I just used the fish and dumped the rest. As it is, she's pretty pissed off I got the tank, since it seems to reduce the impact her bowl has on my life. Whatever...

Now the store owner and Dad got into this discussion where they thought that instead of leaving the decision to me of which fish to bu, the store owner would decide himself, plus Dad wanted some extras. So he gave us four orange goldfish, two black goldfish, two white goldfish, two rainbow goldfish and five guppies. since Dad is a sucker for looks, he decided to buy two fully-mature adult rainbow goldfish, which are about 6" in length. He also bought a Silver Arowana for it's Feng Shui thing about good luck and almost made the deal to get four Discus fish, until he realized that they were expensive, so he didn't get the discus. Total cost of fish? 3000 Indian rupees or 60 US dollars!!

Thus, this is how Asgard was born, realm of the Norse gods. The Arowana (called The Judge, coz he looked like one) stayed on top, the fully-matured rainbow goldfish (Frey & Freya) and the other fish inhabited the tank. When I got home with all the supplies, I cleaned the gravel, for over three hours, just to make sure it was clean. I didn't use the fake plants, since I wanted a natural look, so I used about six or seven live plants (I dunno the species). After everything was in place, I placed the bags containing the fish for about 30 minutes, then did the 1/4 cup thing, until all the fish were in the tank. Note that I did not have a light yet, since the canopy was to be constructed in my Dad's workshop (he's an architect), and nor did I have the canopy itself.

After about a day, the water started getting greenish and very hazy. Visibility was very low, even from above the tank, and the fish seemed a little perturbed. I figured it was becoz there was no light, so just made sure to pester my dad for the canopy and light. Anyways, cleaning broken bits of plants was tough, since I had to do this almost every few hours or so. Then last night, the unexpected happened.

I slept a little late, at about 7:00 am. At 8:30 am, my brother woke me up, saying one of my fish was on the floor. Apparently, the Arowana (Judge) jumped out of the tank, and fell four feet on the ground, where it lay there, for perhaps 30 minutes, without water and without any warmth, since the air-conditioning was on. When I inspected it, I found that it's gills were still a little active. So I put it in a large tub, with aeration and some warm de-chlorinated water. I waited and thankfully, Judge began breathing fine, though he wouldn't move. See, when he fell down, he must have broken his spine or something, coz while normally he was very fluid, now he just had an erect body and he'd float upwards in the water. I know, I know, you might think it was dead, but I clearly saw gills move, not once but many times. But it was all too much for Judge and he died. What was disheartening was that not only did he die a horrible horrible death, but he also died becoz of my negligence in getting a canopy. Instead of flushing him down the toilet or burying him where animals could get to him, I, in my emotional state, decided to follow the Hindu tradition of burning his body. Which I did. He burned little, not all, but I couldn't bear to look, so I just let the fire burn and left the scene.

Obviously, I had hardly slept and now couldn't even sleep in peace for fear of causing harm to the other fish. So I got my Dad to hurry up on the canopy and light, while I moved the fish to a large tub, with proper aeration. I then spent at least 11 hours, thoroughly cleaning the gravel, handful by handful, in hot running water. Then I cleaned the filter and the sponge, which had turned from a bright yellow, to a dull smelly green, and the heater too. The canopy still wasn't ready, but I was adamant. Above the tank, there is a shelf. I got a long rectangular shape cut into it, where I placed the light tube and got the necessary modifications to my shelf. Then, after the gravel had been thoroughly cleaned, I got the tank cleaned. The water inside the tank was all dirty smelly brown and I had to wear gloves, just to make sure I didn't get anything on my hands which might be bad for me.

After everything was absolutely clean, not foul-smelling and generally done, I again set up the aquarium, this time, using the fake plant, instead of the live plants. Earlier, I had just placed the gravel in a flat way, but this time, I made sure it had a slope, for food debris to roll down the tank, if possible. I made sure that there were enough hiding places for the fish. While in the tub, three guppies managed to jump out of the tub and were flapping about on the floor, but since I was at hand, I managed to save their lives.

Finally, the tank was beginning to look like what I initially planned it to look like. The entire thing was beautiful to look at and the fish seemed to love it. Now, just 6 hours later, the water again looks a little hazy. Not greenish, but it's a little less clearer than when I first put the fish in.

Now, the reason for this immensely long post...

1. What can I do to stop the water from turning hazy or dirty?

2. Should I dump two orange goldfish and two guppies for four loaches or two loaches and two other bottom feeders?

3. Since the goldfish poop so much, is there a particular organism I can use to clean up the tank when there is poop? Like snails??

4. Should I sell off the fully-matured 6" adult goldfish and thereby save them from being limited to the 27 gallon tank?

5. Should I put my angelfish in the big tank? Is the bowl alright or do they need more space?

6. How can I have a perfectly balanced tank, without spending too much money, using nature instead of expensive filters?

7. Could I add one multi-coloured baby turtle in this tank and will it get along with the fish?

8. What are the natural biological ways to just keep an aquarium clean and healthy?

9. Even though the filter is brand new and is apparently "imported", why doesn't it keep the tank squeaky clean?

10. How can I make a gravel vaccum at home? Kinda like a DIY.

Note: I'm in India, so there is a serious lack of the kind of equipment supplied at WalMart and Big Al's. So explanations should be clear, concise and keeping in mind my geographical challenges.

Boy, do I sound like boring little turd!!!!!!
 

ewok

Senile Member
Jun 11, 2002
715
1
0
new haven ct.
nah, nice writing. :)

you have a whole combination of problems unfortunately, and you have just somewhat compounded them by the cleaning actually. first problem, you have a lot of fish... second, you have an uncycled tank and most likely that's the reason for the cloudy water. possibly a bacterial bloom, but that would depend on the color.......

i would first suggest some research, some reading at www.skepticalaquarist.com and www.thekrib.com on the nitrogen cycle would be in order and might help you to understand your problems.

the picture is the shortform answer to part of your problem, every tank cycles and yours is no exception unfortunately, but with a little patience and some water changes you and your fish should be just fine.

you have alot of fish, and they produce alot of waste, basically overstocked no matter how you look at it. that might have been part of the reason the arrowanna jumped. i think you should at least get rid of frey and freya, and you might unfortunately want to return some more and/or go back to your original plan. i know your father meant well, but too many fish is a really big problem where waste is concerned and it causes rapid chemical imbalances that could be very toxic to the fish.

fish produce waste that is generally mostly ammonia, now you need time for your tank to produce the bacteria to "eat" that which will in turn produce nitrites. the next step would be another bacteria that will "eat" the nitrites and produce nitrates as a waste product. those will have to be removed by plants and water changes, preferrably on a weekly schedule. these bacteria will appear normally, it is just a matter of time.

until then, i would suggest daily water changes, probably 20-30% at least, to keep the toxins from building up in the water. a slight amount of salt in the water might also be beneficial for when the nitrites start to appear, probably only like a tablespoon or two though. this will not evaporate and will only be removed by the water changes, so keep that in mind also.

as a suggestion, if you return the 6" fish maybe you can talk the shop owner into giving you credit for a test kit. the 3 most important tests generally at this stage are ph, ammonia and nitrites..... nitrates would be nice for later, also gh and kh are a plus. maybe even the shop owner can test your water for you for free or a small charge if the test kit isn't possible.... otherwise, frequent and massive water changes are the way to go.

i'm going to stop here for a few to reread the post and find specific questions...................

cycle1.jpg
 
Last edited:

Kit Walker

AC Members
Jun 9, 2002
216
0
0
Australia
Visit site
Well you seem to be very keen to look after your tank, but you have missed one of the first principles of fishkeeping. Your newly setup tank has not cycled. In brief there is not enough good bacteria to break down the wastes from the amount of fish you have in there. You started of with a quite heavy bioload. The hazy, smelly water is caused by a large outbreak of unfavourable bacteria which will occur as the tank cycles, but is probably more severe in your case. For an understanding of cycling I suggest you visit www.skepticalaquarist.com or most likely someone else will explain it in a post. Also, goldfish and tropical fish are usually not kept together due to different requirements. From the amount of fuss you have made over your tank so far, I'm sure you will become a highly successful aquarist. Good luck.
 

pinballqueen

Roleplayer
Aug 4, 2002
723
0
0
Sevierville, TN
www.hostultra.com
Okay, lemme see if I understand you correctly....

You have 10 goldfish, a bunch of guppies, a couple of angels, and used to have an arrowana.....in 27 gallons of water? Wow. You'll probably receive a lot of flaming here pretty soon because that is really, really crowded.

I'm not going to flame you though. I understand that this is a very common beginner mistake. You are really not going to like my suggestions, but it will keep you from a lot of heartbreak in the near future. Sell the fish back to the store. All of them. Keep the angels if you want, since they were a gift from your significant other, but don't keep any of the rest, because the tank is not ready to be inhabited. Also, keep in mind that a tank that size is not big enough for a pair of angels. They get very large and like a lot of room to move.

Second, read up on the numerous topics on this forum dedicated to cycling. Read them, eat them, sleep with them. They are going to be your best friend in the coming weeks. Cycle your tank. Don't try any chemicals that "speed up the process". Just let it happen like it is supposed to. Don't skimp on filtration. You need to have filtration. Nature has filtration, via the soil and plants and such, so the water is pure when it gets to the lake, and is constantly being filtered by these means. This is not possible with a box made of glass, so we must filter. Buy the best you can afford.

After you have gone to all of that trouble (which isn't that scary once you get going), then worry about what kind of fish to put in. Research the adult sizes, diets, and temperaments of any fish you plan to keep, and don't buy the fish thinking you'll get a bigger tank later or "if I get them young enough, they'll get along fine" for your more aggressive guys.

Then buy fish, one at a time. Put them in the tank and let them and the environment adjust. Be patient.

And please, please, please....don't keep those angels in a fishbowl. They'll die.

Please don't buy an arrowana unless you have at least 200 gallons to spare, either. They get MASSIVE. Like, 6 feet long.

Hope I've helped some.
 

ewok

Senile Member
Jun 11, 2002
715
1
0
new haven ct.
part b:

1. the water will stop being hazy #1 when the tank cycles and #2 when the bioload is decreased. if you remove some of the fish the haze won't be as bad, until the tank cycles and the "good" bacteria grow. ideally there is a thing called a "fishless cycle" that is made using pure ammonia in place of the fish. after the tank cycles the water will definately be clear i would imagine, just getting it there is going to be difficult and require more work with alot of fish.

2. i would dump quite a few of the fish, for now at least. it is easier to cycle a tank with fish with less fish. i definately think a bottom dweller of some sort might be nice tho, to scavenge uneaten food.

3. nothing eats poop that i know of..... sorry, just can't think of a solution other than water changes and vacuuming.

4. yes, i would recommend it, perhaps like i said you can trade them for something like a test kit for your water chemistry.

5. the angelfish in the big tank is actually a very good scenario, but the other fish mostly unfortunately are not. most goldfish require alot of room and are huge waste producers and as noted by kit walker require different temperatures and water chemistry than alot of other fish.

6. to perfectly balance the tank, you need to find the right amount and combination of fish. pick 1 fish like your angels and build around them with others, like giant danios and top dwellers and bottom dwellers. as far as saving money, when the tank is cycled your biggest expense could be dechlorinator. i rarely change filter pads personally, just rinse them until they fall apart or become clogged.

7. i don't think i'd recommend the turtle, maybe if it's small enough to go into the goldfish bowl when it is empty. most turtles i would think would like fish as snack foods...... unfortunately i don't and haven't kept one so have very limited knowledge.

8. water changes....... best thing you can do for your fish. it's amazing how much good just doing simple water changes can do.

9. too many fish and possibly over-feeding. the filter might also be rated a little too low for the tank, another reason to lighten the bio-load..........

10. DIY gravel vac is basically a section of stiff tubing with some soft hose attached to it somehow. like 1 1/2 clear or pvc tubing with some sort of cap on one end with like 1/2 tubing or hose attached to that. you could do this with just the thin tubing by siphoning, but the hose will clog alot with gravel if it can. the stiff tubing is more of an expansion area so the gravel isn't immediately sucked into the tube and clog it. to start the siphon just submerge the tubing in the tank and lift one end out with a finger over it to stop the water from draining back into the tank. remove the finger when it is over a bucket and you will have a siphon without sucking on nasty tank water.

any other questions ... post them... hopefully i have explained this well enough, and i'm sure other will be along to add comments shortly.

and btw: welcome to the board and the soon to be joys of keeping fish. :)
 
Last edited:

Cichlid Woman

Dwarf cichlids rule ...
Nov 27, 2002
327
0
0
72
central Illinois
Visit site
Oh, Nischint, I enjoyed your post! I never (hardly) read long posts, but I got so caught up in the ... er ... drama of your situation that I read all the way to the end. I could also tell that the fish bug has bitten you--and keeping tropical fish in your nice 29-gal tank may become a passion for you, as it has for us.

Get rid of the goldfish. Goldfish are bad in your tank.

Read up as suggested on tank cycling. While you're doing that, feed the angels and guppies twice a day, but NOT MUCH. Use flake. When feeding, remember: the size of your fish's stomach is the same size as one of its eyes. Let that be your guide.

A couple of bottom-feeders (like cory cats) would be good in your tank, you've got room.

The hazy water (if it's white, not green) means your tank is probably cycling. The one test kit you need right away is an ammonia test kit. There should be no ammonia in there, but there will be some as the tank cycles. Once the cycling is complete (can be up to a month), the ammonia will go away. In the meantime, if you get an ammonia reading on the test kit, do a partial water change right away.

What kind of filter are you using on the tank?

-- Pat
 

val

.
Oct 18, 2002
250
0
16
60
Eastern Shore, Maryland
OK You Get the Best Post Award.

Great post. Thank you for taking the time to tell us how you got started.

You've got a lot of good advice so far, and I'm not good enough to be able to add to it.

I do want to congratulate you on keeping 2 anglefish happy and alive in a goldfish bowl. That is a major accomplishment and all those of us in love with hi-tech filters would never have thought it possible. In American parlance, you da woman! Wetman would be proud, and that is saying something.

Keep us updated...

Val
 

Nischint

Everyone's a critic
Dec 19, 2002
28
0
0
43
Bombay, India
www.jamlikethat.com
And God said, Let there be light...

First off, thanks for all the posts about how great my post was/is. It's good to hear compliments, as always. But it isn't that hard, especially if you've been a writer for the last six years, like I have ;)

And Val, in American parlance, I'd be "da man", since I cannot seem to find my fallopian tubes yet but I do have my vas deferens intact. :D

Anyways, thanks for all your help and I did do a lot of reading, as suggested by all of you. In fact, one of the first things I read was that if something was right for someone else's aquarium, it does not necessarily mean that the same thing will be good for mine. Now that line confused me a lot, so what I did was just wait.

And I guess I got lucky. Today, Sunday, December 22, 2002, I noticed that the little haze that was present has completely disappeared. Honest, it's like it was never there. Now the tank is absolutely clear and my fish seem to be fine. Of course, I did do one thing that might have changed things for me. I think I was overfeeding the fish. The thing is that Frey & Freya manage to gobble up a lot of food, and it made me think that the others might not be getting any, that's why I always put in almost double the food. Now, with this reduced feeding, where I feed them twice in 24 hours, every twelve hours, the tank seems to have lost its haze completely.

I used Cichlid Woman's thumb rule, where I fed them some flake and some freeze dried worms, about the size of one of their eyes. Flake in the morning and the worms at night. And I think the tank has finished cycling. It's quite amazing. I was afraid of waiting for at least a few weeks until the cycling is complete and that within this period, I might lose a few more fish.

One of my close friends, who's had aquariums for about 7 years, suggested that I take a pinch, just a tiny pinch, of alum and dissolve it completely in glass of water. Then I should pour it into the tank, without the pump and the filter on. Apparently, the alum would sink to the bottom and take care of the ammonia present there.

Another one suggested I sell him Frey & Freya, whom he would feed to his piranhas and he'd give me a pair of piranha instead.

Yet another one said I should get a predatory eel who will make short work of my fish and will look really cool while it's hunting.

It's a good thing I don't listen to friends like them :D

As I figured out everyone's opinions, I should send Frey & Freya back to the store, and also at least a pair of the orange goldfish I have. I should get two Pakistani loaches instead, and with the remaining money, I should invest in tester kits.

The thing is, I spoke to my store owner. Now he's a close family friend of my stepmother. Which is why we got all the stuff from him. He's been keeping aquariums for the last 30 odd years, and in fact, when I spoke to him about cycling, he said that it would happen automatically and he even predicted the day when the tank would clear up. Which turned out to be true. He says that I shouldn't return anything yet, or get any new fish. He said that with the ones I have, I should hang on for a month or so, while my tank gets properly stabilized and I can properly handle the tank properly in case of water changes and other little problems, since goldfish are tougher than most other species. Then, later, after a month, I can return Frey & Freya, and any of the other fished, to him and invest in the loaches, and perhaps get other fishes from him, since he really is the prime dealer in aquatic supplies and fish in the city. He also said pretty much the same thing you guys did about the angel fish, that I should keep them in the tank, but I should wait until the tank is completely cycled.

I think I'm gonna trust his judgement here. After all, later, if something were to happen, I can easily blame him and get some major refunds, instead of being blamed myself for not listening to him. It's only obvious that the line, if something was right for someone else's aquarium, it does not necessarily mean that the same thing will be good for mine, really holds true. And especially in India, where the tropical climate, weather and the fishes themselves, come into play and are drastically different from the situations elsewhere.

I plan to take a good picture of my tank and show it to you guys here. Any good ideas on how to get this right??? And is there any truth in the fact that the fish will grow only as per the size of the tank they're kept in???

You guys have got it right, I am a major aqaurium fan now. I have been typing this post for the last hour and a half, and I just can't get my eyes off Asgard :)
 
zoomed.com
hikariusa.com
aqaimports.com
Store