Jumbo Oranda died a long painful death...

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Lychee85

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Dec 20, 2009
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I purchased a jumbo, and I mean JUMBO oranda from a reputable aquarium in Rockville, Maryland. We've always had fish in our home-- from bettas, to a variety of fancy goldfish, and even a pirhana. I decided a 30 gallon aquarium would add a nice touch to my apartment.

After a week of building the aquarium and stand and cycling we purchased a jumbo red cap oranda from this place. It was originally $100 and marked down to $50. This should have been a red flag. I figured this was a well-established and reputable place, although I knew it was pricey. I figured the medium red cap orandas from Petsmart were $25 so I was willing to pay extra for this beauty. There were 2 other jumbo orandas in the tank at the store. One was kinda blah. The other was so massive his wen was obstruting his vision. So we went with the third member who we aptly named Lychee. I should have been more cautious but I was so excited.

Anyways, let me describe my tank set up to you. I have a 30 gallon tank with a statue, a dragon connected to an air pump, and a small plastic floral piece also connected to the air pump. I had about 1 inch of gravel with several pretty marbles. The tank looked great the fish was swimming freely and loving his tank.

My ammonia levels were high for a few weeks but I finally got it under control. Next time I will let my water cycle much longer especially because I got such a big fish capable of producing ALOT of waste. We did weekly water changes and regularly tested water conditions. Everything was great.

Then a disaster!

One day we changed the filter... this is normally my husbands responsibility but he left the job halfway and I finished up. I did not realize he turned the dial to minimize the flow of water from the filter so I never turned it back. The water seemed cloudy and murky day after day. I tried water clarifier and it didn't work, it only stressed my fish. Once I discovered this human error the water cleared up but my fish was lethargic and showing signs of what I thought was dropsy. He also had some white cottony growth on his wen, but I was debating whether it was ich or wen growth. The fish had to have been 5 years old or so to get this size and should have assumed it was ich, not growth. I found nothing to indicate parasites or worms in the water. I medicated him with Maracyn Two and he was back to good health within 48 hours. I felt so happy and gratified that I saved my fish.

About a week or two after that I noticed my fish was listless again. This time I saw some spots and some tiny silver things flickering in the water. It also looked like I had water fleas! Everything was a mess! He even had long white stringy things attached to him, mainly from his anus. However I knew this was not white feces associated with high levels of ammonia-- it literally looked like a clear white straw that waved around in the water. It was painful for him to swim because if he would swim the worm would go back into the fish. I medicated with copper and some other things I cannot remember the name of. He seemed to be getting better but these long stringy creatures were still present. I even tried to feed him anti-parasite food but he couldn't budge to eat, losing a significant amount of weight.

He battled for three days laying on the side of his tank. We decided we should euthanize him when we got home later that evening because we spent $100 medicating and he was not getting better. When we got home we found him dead-- stuck to the filter.

He died a long painful death. I was too scared to go near the tank not knowing what was inside. I remember using the net to pull out these weird creatures to identify them but I still have no idea what they were. Anyways my mom cleaned out my tank-- discarding all the gravel and washing everything else. Everything has dried out... it has been sitting empty for a month or so.

Am I ready to re-cycle and add new fish? Should I clean with clorox to be safe? It just seems that clorox is a little harsh. And should I throw out the piping that connected the bubblers to the air pump? I'm really worried about buying another expensive fish and going through this. My fish was not only a fish but enhanced the decor of my apartment. He was definitely a talking point. Now I'm worried if I get one fish I will be attached to it again, but I fear if I had more than one some illness like this could wipe out my population and it would be harder to detect or diagnose.

I'm wondering if the fish died because of us or if there was something wrong with him in the beginning, causing him to be marked down 50%.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!
 

Somervell

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I am so sorry for your loss,Lychee. Sometimes it is very difficult to tell what kills goldfish. Since you had the fish for a while, it might have been something with the water parameters that made him/her sensitive to infection. My guess is that if he survived to the large size he was, it was probably safe to say that genetically, he was okay-- it's just hard to find someone in the hobby willing to shell out that much money for a fish they aren't going to/can't show, which might explain the price reduction. A Red Cap is a pretty common fish (but also a pretty, common fish :))

You say that you "changed" the filter. This may have caused the tank to recycle and put stress on the fish. There are some excellent stickys on tank cycling that might be worth checking out before starting again. Some people wash tanks with a mild bleach solution (I do); others think that it is the worst thing in the world. When you start again, you will need to build up a beneficial bacterial colony in the filter and on the gravel.

Don't be discouraged. It sounds like you tried everything that you could for that particular fish. Goldfish are not as easy as everyone thinks to take care of-- even for experienced fish keepers like you seem to be. They have very special needs and can be very sensitive to water parameters and diet. Sometimes, you just don't know what causes them to die. I would encourage you to start with a beautiful, small fish that will grow into something that will help with the decor in your apartment.
 

Rbishop

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Welcome to AC!
 

Stargazer53

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Oh gosh, I'm so sorry to hear of your deep battle and courageous actions to save your Lychee (which by the way, is one of my favorite fruits). But to further touch up on some questions that were not answered yet, in regards to re-cycling, I would clean-rinse-soak the tank out with a diluted mixture of bleach and water. Make sure you rinse the tank several times after with clean water to make sure you get all the harmful chemicals out.

I don't feel you need to discard any of your equipment or accessories. I think you should, however, throw out the filter media (not the actual filter) and as instructed earlier with the diluted bleach+water mixture, sanitize all your equipment (tubing, filter, ornaments, substrate, etc).

As to why he/she was marked down, it could've been a plethora of reasons. As you know, the economy isn't at it's best right now. Perhaps they were trying to make a quick sale? Maybe the fish was indeed sick, but I wouldn't be able to tell you for sure. Whatever the actual case may be, I do believe that 'Lychee's' pre-existing or new condition of sickness was triggered by the murky water conditions which caused him/her stress, which weaked his/her immune system and ultimately, took his/her life.

If you are ready, I would encourage you to definitely start up your tank and this time, cycle for the proper amount of time. Rockville isn't too far from Virginia; if you ever visit Annandale, they have a petstore there called "Super Pets" - they have the biggest aquatic department in the state and have a whole row of tanks dedicated to goldfish. Also, to speed up the cycle process, if you have any friends who have healthy tanks, if you can get some of the filter media or gravel or 'mulm' from their established tanks, you can introduce the good bacteria to get your cycle going faster.

Good luck and welcome to Aquaria Central. :)
 

Lupin

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:welcome: to AC!

I am very sorry you lost your Lychee, hun and I understand how very frustrating it is for you.:(

To make it easier for me to follow through this chain of events, I will comment/answer on your descriptions bit by bit. Please bear with me if this seems a tad overwhelming!

My ammonia levels were high for a few weeks but I finally got it under control. Next time I will let my water cycle much longer especially because I got such a big fish capable of producing ALOT of waste. We did weekly water changes and regularly tested water conditions. Everything was great.
Could you please tell us what test kit you used to measure your ammonia? What were your nitrite, nitrate and pH? What is the temperature of the tank? How did your oranda's gills look? Extremely pale and anemic? Healthy red and well defined in appearance?

Unfortunately, if your ammonia is very high and you were unable to control it before, the first thing I would look if I were you is your test kit. Many test kits are unreliable to begin with. I would look into API liquid drops and avoid test strips which tend to be rather misleading. When your ammonia soars dangerously, do as many water changes as you can to keep it down. Failing that, it will quickly kill the fish by burning their gills.

If you already have other tanks set up, your new tank did not need go through another cycling process from the scratch. Simply get the established filter medias from your old tanks and transfer to the new tank. Afterwards, be sure your ammonia and nitrite remain 0.25 and below when you add your fish and do as many water changes as necessary. Forget the chemicals such as Ammolock to do the job as there is a tendency they will intervene with your nitrogen cycle too much that it may never finish the conversion of toxic substances at all.

One day we changed the filter... this is normally my husbands responsibility but he left the job halfway and I finished up. I did not realize he turned the dial to minimize the flow of water from the filter so I never turned it back. The water seemed cloudy and murky day after day. I tried water clarifier and it didn't work, it only stressed my fish. Once I discovered this human error the water cleared up but my fish was lethargic and showing signs of what I thought was dropsy. He also had some white cottony growth on his wen, but I was debating whether it was ich or wen growth. The fish had to have been 5 years old or so to get this size and should have assumed it was ich, not growth. I found nothing to indicate parasites or worms in the water. I medicated him with Maracyn Two and he was back to good health within 48 hours. I felt so happy and gratified that I saved my fish.
In this case and the simple things that can be done, I would simply do another large water change and refrain from using chemicals such as water clarifiers except for dechlorinators. Water clarifiers are in my opinion absolute garbage. I'd take advantage of a water change to maintain clean water and keep your fish happy. Do a thorough vacuuming without stirring the substrate too much as the nitrogen gases in dead pockets sicken goldfish very easily.

How did you clean your filter? All your filter needs is a slight swish to remove the muck stuck on the filter media. Use old tank water during a water change to do the job. Never use hot water or boiling water or anything else that can kill the beneficial bacteria colonizing the filter and responsible for keeping your water conditions stable.

About a week or two after that I noticed my fish was listless again. This time I saw some spots and some tiny silver things flickering in the water. It also looked like I had water fleas! Everything was a mess! He even had long white stringy things attached to him, mainly from his anus. However I knew this was not white feces associated with high levels of ammonia-- it literally looked like a clear white straw that waved around in the water. It was painful for him to swim because if he would swim the worm would go back into the fish. I medicated with copper and some other things I cannot remember the name of. He seemed to be getting better but these long stringy creatures were still present. I even tried to feed him anti-parasite food but he couldn't budge to eat, losing a significant amount of weight.
The white stringy poo especially when thin indicates your oranda suffered internal bacterial infection. A good treatment here would be to feed him MediGold or add kanamycin or tetracycline into the food. Anything by ingestion is the best way to treat internal bacterial infections. Kanamycin works if your pH is above 7.0 and tetracycline on the opposite.

I find it impossible the worm would stick out of the fish alive unless we are talking of camallanus worms, nematodes that need levamisole hydrochloride, flubendazole or fenbendazole. Tapeworms normally will not come out of the fish alive but rather paralyzed or dead until then pushed out using large meals of peas and/or shrimps once treated with anthelmintics such as praziquantel.

I hope I do not sound too insensitive here but if you still have the dead oranda, I would have done a necropsy on it. If it is still fresh/refrigerated, it will be a good opportunity to study what was encased inside the abdominal area and we can find out how this can be prevented. Only a necropsy of a dead fish ultimately gives us a few steps ahead of any future problems that may come thus enabling us to save a few more fish from this repeating incidence.

Nematodes sometimes encase themselves in a cyst. This is the most protected parasite and only strong meds such as piperazine and levamisole hydrochloride can obliterate them. There are a few more to watch such as cestodes and trematodes.

He died a long painful death. I was too scared to go near the tank not knowing what was inside. I remember using the net to pull out these weird creatures to identify them but I still have no idea what they were. Anyways my mom cleaned out my tank-- discarding all the gravel and washing everything else. Everything has dried out... it has been sitting empty for a month or so.
The only disease that has an ability to transmit between fish and human is mycobacteriosis but it happens usually when your hands have small cuts otherwise proper hygiene will minimize the risk. I doubt this is what happened though but oftentimes, the only way to be sure your fish may have granuloma is performing a necropsy on the dead fish by operating the gills and abdominal areas and look for unusual cysts that may resemble somehow the myco.

Am I ready to re-cycle and add new fish? Should I clean with clorox to be safe? It just seems that clorox is a little harsh. And should I throw out the piping that connected the bubblers to the air pump? I'm really worried about buying another expensive fish and going through this. My fish was not only a fish but enhanced the decor of my apartment. He was definitely a talking point. Now I'm worried if I get one fish I will be attached to it again, but I fear if I had more than one some illness like this could wipe out my population and it would be harder to detect or diagnose.
I think that whatever issue it was, the plan above seems overboard except perhaps if mycobacteriosis is the actual culprit once properly found out. If they were dry for a month or more, simply rinse them with hot water (not the glass tank and other materials made of glass or it/they'll crack) and then salt.

Now for your new fish, I'd get a quarantine/hospital tank. A 10 or 15 gallon is preferable. Keep it simple by maintaining it barebottom and operate only with a sponge filter or HOB (hang on back) filter and then a heater to maintain the temperature. Once done, we need to sort out a few treatments as preventive measure. Some people can disagree but the whole point of quarantining regardless of the sources, is to keep the parasites at bay and eliminate them as much as possible aside from constant watch. With the lack of proper equipments such as microscopes in some instances, then we do need the help of some mild treatments that will do very little to harm the beneficial bacteria responsible for a stable nitrogen cycle process.

Firstly, you must add sodium chloride to 0.3% or 3 teaspoons per gallon. It does not matter whether this is aquarium salt or table salt nor iodized or not. Bottom line is, it should be sodium chloride. Here are some basic steps to ensure adding it is done gradually and carefully.

1. Add 0.1% equivalent to a teaspoon per gallon. Be sure to dissolve the salt thoroughly or most of it although in my experience, my goldfish love to nibble on salt happily.
2. After 12 hours (if your fish tolerates it well), add another 0.1%.
3. Repeat step 2 (after another 12 hours).

As for praziquantel, you can buy it either as Prazipro in online stores and petstores, or as Droncit in veterinary clinics. Praziquantel is used to eliminate flukes and some intestinal worms, both common ailments among goldfish. Your other option is Flubendazole which does a similar job. UK folks can buy it as Kusuri Fluke-M.

For dosing regimen, here it is.

Remove carbon.
Add 2.5 milligrams per liter of water.
If you are using the powdered version, it is difficult to dissolve. Predissolve in tank water by shaking it up in a small container.
Dosing
Day 1 -- remove carbon, perform water change with vacuuming, and add Prazi to tank
Day 2 -- add Prazi
Day 3 -- do nothing
Day 4 -- do nothing
Day 5 -- do nothing
Day 6 -- add Prazi
Day 7 -- add Prazi
Day 8 -- normal partial water change with vacuuming
Day 14 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 21 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 28 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 35 - normal partial water change, add carbon, treatment is complete
Now, when you do a water change, be sure the salt and praziquantel must be redosed per the water volume replaced to keep the concentration steady and effective against parasites.

Lastly, I'd like to provide a tip for some essentials that we need to avoid too much hassles. You do not have to buy/keep all these things. Buy only what you think are necessary.

Clove oil (for sedative (not recommended to beginners) or euthanasia)
Iodine solution (topical treatment for sores, ulcers, etc)
Laboratory tools such as scissors and scalpel
Towels
Spare heater
Sponge filters/Extra filters
Test kits by API (liquid)
Metronidazole/Metromeds
Salt
Praziquantel/Flubendazole
Vacuum
Toothbrush/Magnetic brush
Q-tips
Cotton balls

Other essentials:
Microscope
Kanamcyin/Tetracycline
Erythromycin/Minocycline
Trichlorfon/Dimilin (for external parasites such as anchorworms)
Levamisole Hydrochloride
Jungle Antiparasite/Antibacterial Foods
Epsom salts

There's a hand net that I did not include though because I keep mostly fancy goldfish myself and nets are evil things. Fine and dandy for some but it scrapes the slime coat easily so I handle fish carefully and gently with bare hands. I have no problems doing that myself but that's just my experience.

Hope this helps.:) Simple things are all it takes to keep everything organized and straight. The most important thing is be patient, research more and do not panick nor be discouraged. My goldfish had plenty of health issues before but a simple and calm action by organizing what meds to properly administer upon diagnosing is all it took to save their lives quickly.:thumbsup:
 
Last edited:

Lychee85

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Dec 20, 2009
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AWESOME! thanks for the detailed breakdown. I will make sure I take note of your hints and list of aquarium must haves!
 
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