oto in trouble, advice needed

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cellodaisy

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Jan 11, 2009
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I'm sorry this is so long, but I'm not sure what's relevant, so please bear with me.

I'm moving out of state in a few weeks, and shuffling fish around as I sell off tanks in preparation for the big haul. As part of that, I combined two 30g tanks into one 55g. One 30g had my 6 L204 plecos, the other had 3 otos and about 18 endlers. (I know that 3 otos is suboptimal. I started with 6, then lost 3 a while back in an incident with a moss wall (which was promptly removed), and just hadn't managed to get more yet.)

Tuesday night, I moved the fish over individually (otos last) and watched closely for signs of distress or aggression. Everything and everyone seemed fine.

Wednesday and Thursday I fed and did water changes. Everything and everyone still seemed fine. All fish active and eating.

Friday I didn't do anything, but everything and everyone still seemed fine. All fish active and behaving normally.

Saturday mid-day, I found an oto dead on the filter. No other fish seemed distressed.

Saturday night I found another oto dead on the bottom. No other fish seemed distressed... except the last remaining oto. It was breathing very fast and seemed perhaps bloated. I set up my QT tank (with plenty of plants for cover) and moved the distressed oto over.

Today, the oto seems a bit better. All other fish (endlers and plecos) in the 55g still seem perfectly fine.

At no point did I test the water parameters. (I'm a bad fish keeper, I know. Just trying to save everyone's time since I'm sure the first question will be "what are your water parameters?")

My questions:

1 - Any idea what happened?

2 - If the oto pulls through, what should I do? Put it back in the 55g? Get more otos? Try to rehome? (Again, I'm moving out of state ~July 18, so that really complicates things!)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, AC!
 

platytudes

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I've found otos to be surprisingly delicate and difficult to acclimate. Whereas most fish I've bought are fine within a few minutes, if I drip acclimate otos they will be pale and hiding for the rest of the day. I don't know if this is because they are usually not in the greatest shape at the pet store (subsisting on a diet of flakes, in a usually heavily salted tank), or because they are more sensitive to different water chemistry - but I do know that the water chemistry is different at the pet store. City water is much less hard and alkaline than my well water.

Rummynoses are similar in that way. A few may drop off at first, but then the rest are hardy and live long lives. I bought 6 otos at a time before, when they are $1 at Petsmart. In a couple of months, I was down to 5. I started with 8 three years ago, and am now down to just 2. I have no plans on buying more (honestly, shrimp and nerites seem to make much better algae eaters, and I am starting to appreciate the algae in my tanks more!) but I don't want to move them either, because of their touchy nature.

Like you, I am not the most diligent fish keeper...I've known to go several months on a planted tank without a proper water change (just a 10% skim) and currently I am out of test kits, and have been for a few months. The way I look at it, if a fish dies mysteriously, I just do a partial water change and run some carbon. It's the best I can do. If a whole tank is showing symptoms, I do a 50% water change while I think about how to treat. Luckily, it's just been ich in my case - and very seldom at that.

Sorry for the ramble, I just wanted to commiserate :)

My best guess is that your 55 is going through a mini-cycle - and the otos, being sensitive, maybe picked up on a passing ammonia and/or nitrite spike. Plecos and Endlers seem more resilient to me than otos. I wasn't sure about fancy plecos, so I researched your "flash plecos" (actually Panaque sp.) and saw several informal reports of them being hardy...

Were the otos getting enough to eat with all the plecos? (I didn't even realize you could keep that many plecos together! I always thought they had conspecific aggression issues.)

I would just leave the oto in the quarantine tank. It doesn't sound like it's going to make it, unfortunately. Other than maybe adding Epsom salts (if you have some) there is probably not a whole lot you can do. If it seems drospical, the magnesium sulfate will relieve the bloating, but is only palliative at that point.

My advice? Put it in perspective here - you're moving! ;) Your whole life can't grind to a halt because of one fish. If it dies, it is unfortunate, but nothing to beat yourself up over or let it get in your way too much. You effectively, upgraded the tank...but even using the old substrate, decor and the old filter media, sometimes things don't go 100% smoothly.

I imagine your fish are much happier to have 48" of horizontal space vs. 30" - your plecos especially! Keep an eye on your 55, watch for any cloudiness, if even slight, sniff the water to see if there's any sharp smell - add extra Prime if you feel like there may be even a hint of ammonia or nitrite, especially after feeding. Do small, partial water changes if you have time, they never hurt and can sometimes help. If you have carbon, it wouldn't hurt to use it.

That's about all I've got, sorry...phew! Good luck with everything.
 

cellodaisy

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Jan 11, 2009
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I've found otos to be surprisingly delicate and difficult to acclimate. Whereas most fish I've bought are fine within a few minutes, if I drip acclimate otos they will be pale and hiding for the rest of the day. I don't know if this is because they are usually not in the greatest shape at the pet store (subsisting on a diet of flakes, in a usually heavily salted tank), or because they are more sensitive to different water chemistry - but I do know that the water chemistry is different at the pet store. City water is much less hard and alkaline than my well water.
I was aware of the notorious fragility of otos during acclimation and was very fortunate not to lose any in the first few months. I thought this switch wouldn't stress them so much because I was moving a bunch of plants and the filter (Whisper i40) from their previous tank and the 55g was previously in use and I was leaving that filter (AquaClear 300) as well. I did extra water changes those first two days just in case, but then I thought we were home free. I guess not. :( I really loved watching the otos and would be happy to have another group, but I'm hesitant given my track record with them and this isn't the best time for me to add fish.

Like you, I am not the most diligent fish keeper...I've known to go several months on a planted tank without a proper water change (just a 10% skim) and currently I am out of test kits, and have been for a few months. The way I look at it, if a fish dies mysteriously, I just do a partial water change and run some carbon. It's the best I can do. If a whole tank is showing symptoms, I do a 50% water change while I think about how to treat. Luckily, it's just been ich in my case - and very seldom at that.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. Aside from the moss wall incident, my otos seemed to thrive under such care, defying their fragile reputation. I guess I just got overconfident. :(

Sorry for the ramble, I just wanted to commiserate :)
No apologies necessary. Misery loves company, so it's much appreciated.

My best guess is that your 55 is going through a mini-cycle - and the otos, being sensitive, maybe picked up on a passing ammonia and/or nitrite spike.
Then shouldn't the oto have improved more when I moved it to QT? Or is it just too late at this point?

Plecos and Endlers seem more resilient to me than otos. I wasn't sure about fancy plecos, so I researched your "flash plecos" (actually Panaque sp.) and saw several informal reports of them being hardy...
You can add another informal report to the list. My 6 have been active and growing despite my less-than-perfect care. I absolutely love them.

Were the otos getting enough to eat with all the plecos?
I watched very carefully for aggression, but as far as I can tell the L204s are completely ignoring the other species. I even saw an oto sitting on top of an L204 at one point---neither of them bothered in the slightest. I did see the otos eating (both algae and gel food) and they had what looked like full bellies, but in retrospect perhaps it was bloating.

(I didn't even realize you could keep that many plecos together! I always thought they had conspecific aggression issues.)
I got mine as juvies and knew that I might need to upgrade, separate, or rehome at some point. They push each other around some, but nothing serious yet. I do have one bigger male that is getting more aggressive than I'd like, but I'm hoping the increased floor space will ease tensions for now.

I would just leave the oto in the quarantine tank. It doesn't sound like it's going to make it, unfortunately. Other than maybe adding Epsom salts (if you have some) there is probably not a whole lot you can do. If it seems drospical, the magnesium sulfate will relieve the bloating, but is only palliative at that point.
I think I do have epsom salt somewhere. I'll see if I can find it. And keep my fingers crossed.

That's about all I've got, sorry...phew! Good luck with everything.
Thank you so much, Platy. Even though the prognosis isn't good, at least I feel a bit reassured that I'm doing everything I can.
 

cellodaisy

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I did a WC on the 55g (~10%) and in the process got reminded of one change I made to the tank after moving all the new tenants in... a piece of driftwood. I already had 1 piece in there, from the L204s' tank, but I added another (previously used in a different tank) later, since I had room. It's out now, in case it was part of the problem. Seems unlikely, but not worth the risk since there's already plenty in there for the L204s to chew on.

I also did a WC on the QT (~20%) and added a bit of epsom salt. I found different dosages on different sites, so I was rather conservative (not wanting to overdo it). Does anyone have a definitive dosing guide for epsom?
 

cellodaisy

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Added an air stone to the QT last night to make sure there's plenty of oxygen. (My QT is a silly little 5g hex with an underwhelming filter flow.) This morning, the little trooper is still hanging in there and actually looks a slightly improved. Still keeping the fingers crossed as we're definitely not out of the woods yet, but it's encouraging.

I'd still be interested if anyone has solid information about epsom salt dosing. I found recommendations ranging from 1/8 tsp per 5 gallons to 1 TBS per gallon, which is a really wide range. I went on the low side (1 tsp / 5g, before 20% WC) so as not to overdo it, and things seem okay, so I'll just stick with that if I don't find solid info.
 

platytudes

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I have usually used 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons, so 3 teaspoons. I would maybe add another teaspoon, dissolved in warm water, and leave it at that. I'm glad to hear he may be better! :) Hopefully he will eat, that is a very encouraging sign when a fish is sick. A little blanched zucchini has always been the favorite of my otos, although they are awfully fond of Omega One algae wafers also.
 

cellodaisy

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Did a 20% water change today and added 2 tsp epsom salt. Also put in a tiny bit of gel food, which the otos have always loved in the past, and the little guy has not shown interest yet... but he is still alive and looking a bit better. He (or she) even got off the bottom of the tank long enough for me to snap a pic:

_MG_4599_cropped.jpg

_MG_4599_cropped.jpg
 

platytudes

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I can't tell from that angle, but could that possible be an eggbound female? The extreme redness under the mouth is a little disconcerting. I wish I knew what to suggest, but if I were in your shoes I'd be doing what you're doing and not medicating, either.
 

cellodaisy

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Cincinnati OH 45219
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Just found this old thread and wanted to report that the oto did survive this ordeal... AND the move to Cincinnati... AND the 2 years we've lived here... and is now looking for a new home since I sadly cannot take him/her with me to Los Angeles. It's the little oto that could! I'm really going to miss this cutie. :(
 
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