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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by reptileguy2727 View Post
    I wouldn't call them backyard breeders, and the problem isn't unique to backyard breeders. The problem is real ANY time you select for ANYTHING other than health/hardiness. The best dog breeder in the world is still causing the exact same problems. Maybe they are okay for the generations they have produced so far, but what they are doing is causing harm for the overall health of the breed. The same is true of goldfish. The high end ones are super sensitive. I have heard the same thing of guppies, bettas, on and on. When you select for color, shape, size, etc. you are breeding in spite of health/hardiness instead of for it.

    Which shop?

    How fast they sell depends on a lot of things. Their traffic, how many they have, their pricing, size, color, etc. I would ask how many they have, how long they have had them, what all they are eating, etc. You can also ask them how fast they sell. They may not be completely honest and just try to get you in, but it won't hurt to ask.
    You presuppose that it's not possible to select for more than one trait at a time. 100% incorrect. You presuppose that color, conformation whatever are automatically at odds with hardiness, suitability for captivity, whatever. 100% incorrect as well. Colorful Discus are much easier to breed than their wild progenitors, so obviously while selecting for color breeders were selecting for ease of breeding as well.





  2. #12
    Junior Member yss's Avatar
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    If you are serious about keeping discus, you need to go to a reputable breeder/dealer. There are some exceptions out there, but buying discus from an LFS is a huge gamble. Contrary to what was posted here, LFS discus do not compare in quality and health to discus from reputable breeders/dealers. Breeding discus and raising discus fry successfully is not easy. That's why you don't see too many hobbyists selling discus fry they bred. Getting discus to spawn is easy, but after that, it's a lot work.



  3. #13
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    I agree with Rachel too. I have rarely seen what I'd call healthy or quality discus in a store (even Hans etc discus) except maybe a few in a display tank. Learn what qualities to look for in terms of health & appearance, sick, stunted fish are not fun. And be prepared for a lot of work raising them up from the "affordable" sizes, 2-4 inches.

    Look at hobby & pro breeders at sites like http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forum.php & importers like Hans & Kenny. Take your time to find good fish.



  4. #14
    Not enough tanks, space, or time reptileguy2727's Avatar
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    They may not compare in 'quality' (the definition of which is made up), but they are hardier/healthier.

    Sorry, you can select for more than one trait at a time, but by doing so you cut down the gene pool much more mush sooner, which is much worse long term. 'We can select for quality and health at the same time' is the same line breeders of any animal are regurgitating and fooling themselves with. Any outside observer can see that from a biological point of view selecting for arbitrary traits like color or conformation is bad news, or maybe the scientists I had for professors are just crazy.

    Which will be healthier/hardier: a discus that is pampered in a breeder's tanks who gets an obsessive water change schedule and needs 50%+ protein to grow 'properly' or one that was born and raised on a farm, shipped to a wholesaler, survived, shipped to a local shop, survived, settled in, started eating, and still looks good? Which will do better when life happens and water changes are not the top priority of the week?

    I have dealt with both and the ones from local shops are hardier and much more forgiving, especially for people new to discus. When the breeders I have talked to have to have buckets of meds on hand because even under their pristine care they are still so prone to illnesses on a regular basis, I don't have faith in the health or hardiness of the ones from a breeder.
    75: Planted fancy goldfish
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  5. #15
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    Disagree completely.
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    Our baggage helped define who we are. How we carry it determines our direction in life.



  6. #16
    Junior Member yss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reptileguy2727 View Post
    Which will be healthier/hardier: a discus that is pampered in a breeder's tanks who gets an obsessive water change schedule and needs 50%+ protein to grow 'properly' or one that was born and raised on a farm, shipped to a wholesaler, survived, shipped to a local shop, survived, settled in, started eating, and still looks good? Which will do better when life happens and water changes are not the top priority of the week?

    I have dealt with both and the ones from local shops are hardier and much more forgiving, especially for people new to discus. When the breeders I have talked to have to have buckets of meds on hand because even under their pristine care they are still so prone to illnesses on a regular basis, I don't have faith in the health or hardiness of the ones from a breeder.
    Sorry, but your logic is completely flawed. Not sure how many years of experience you have keeping variety of discus, but I have kept discus for many years, and based on my personal experiences and based on many others who kept discus for a long time, healthier and hardier discus are pampered discus that are well fed and in tip top shape because of good care. Have you seen most of discus at LFS? I would not want to touch over 90% of discus at LFS. Most LFS do not know how to care for discus and can't provide good care due to extra care discus require. They may arrive at the LFS as healthy discus, but the longer they stay at the LFS, the worse the condition. Don't get me wrong. I have bought discus from LFS, but only from the ones that I knew where they got the fish from and that they knew how to care for discus once they arrive.



  7. #17
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    so you are suggesting ugly fish that have been neglected (as in not taken care of for the accepted norm for the breed) are inherently a better purchase for a first time discus buyer and overall are healthier?

    Have you ever BOUGHT good quality discus? Or do you just know from working at a pet shop

    Your advise is absolutely counter intuitive to me and seems more like a way for you to link to your articles then based in fact other than your perceived truths.


    Back on track for the OP:
    You might try posting at www.capitalcichlids.org, a local cichlid club in the NOVA area (I am a member there, as is Hans, and as are MANY knowledge people) to see if anyone is selling discus. I know we have several members keepign and attempting to spawn.



  8. #18
    Not enough tanks, space, or time reptileguy2727's Avatar
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    It is what I have seen over and over and I want people new to discus to understand that.

    I honestly don't know where most of you got your impression of discus at local shops. If they were that bad it is good you didn't buy. But a good local shop will have healthy discus. At the one I work at we go and hand pick every fish that comes in to our shop. I can see how other shops end up with bad discus because I see how bad they look sometimes. But a shop that cares will take proper care of all of their fish. Obviously I am not encouraging people to go out and support shops that do not take proper care of their fish. I am also not suggesting anyone blindly buy whatever horrible discus they may have. I am saying that in my experience I would rather go through a shop.

    As stated, it is blatantly obvious to my professors that selection by humans based on made up standards is of no benefit to the animals. We see the undeniably horrible results in so many breeds of dogs, some worse than others. The same results appear in animals of other types.

    Obviously people who like the idea of 'high quality' animals will continue purchasing them, so there is no convincing. I think my point is clear and anyone willing to think about it and step outside the mindset may see it as well.
    75: Planted fancy goldfish
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  9. #19
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    I went to their store the other day. They have German and Vietnamese Discus. They told me they will be getting in a new shipment this first week of January...



  10. #20
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    Reptileguy you couldn't be more wrong about Discus, or any fish for that matter. Never have I seen such bad advice on the species (Let alone general fish care) in my 10-15 years keeping them. You say you are "Owner: Aquarium Maintenance and Pet Care company"...you wouldn't touch my tanks with a 10ft pole. Although with your logic you could go 5 months without touching them and it will only make the fish stronger.

    OP, go to a breeder, hands down. No question about it. You will get more for your money in terms of health and quality of the fish. Start with healthy fish and you will have an easier time as they grow.

    All of my fish came from a private breeder, they must be total crap and will probably drop dead any day now because I do water changes multiple times per week...


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