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  1. #1
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    New aquariast needs help with black moor goldfish.

    1. Describe the problem (behavior, physical symptoms, observations, duration, severity).
    Included in treatments/environment.

    2. Describe your fish (what kind, how many, what size, how old, how long you've had them).
    Betta Community- 10 gallon, 5 bettas (4 f 1 m), 2- 3" less than a year old- I have had then 3 mos. 1 Mystery snail.

    Goldfish tank 75 gallon, 6 goldfish (2 4" fantails, 2 2 1/2" fantails, 2 3" moors), baby to adolescent, I have had then 2 weeks. 2 mystery snails, 5 ghost shrimp. *note* my goldfish measurements include their tails- not just their body sizes. They are still pretty little guys.

    ALL fish purchased from Walmart after seeing the horrid conditions they are forced in, and wanting them to have a better life. Snails and shrimp= PetSmart.

    3. Tank setup (how long, cycled/uncycled, tank size, filtration, lighting, aeration, substrate, plants/decor).

    Betta- 10 gallon- 3 mos, fully cycled, 15 gallon hob filter, airstone with 10 gal air pump + HOB filter, flourescent hood, aquarium gravel, plastic plants, & a large plastic rock decoration, with a few shale stones on top of substrate..

    Goldfish- 75 gallon, 1 emperor 400 filter with amcarb in the extra media baskets, will purchase another in a couple of mos when the goldies grow too big for 1 filter of this size, cycled with filter media from betta tank and Fosters & Smith Colonize bacterial additive (have had no spikes with monitoring), Lighting is UV spectrum flourescent light bar over glass tank top, air= fusion 300 quiet power pump- will be replacing with larger in a couple of weeks, as it is too weak for tank but still providing surface breaking. Bubble wall along back, HOB filter, and an air stone toward middle of tank. Plastic plants. Aquarium gravel for substrate. Shale stone in tank, as well. & plastic decor.

    4. Water conditions (water source, conditioners used, temperature). Tap water with Stress Coat, once a month Fosters & Smith Colonize, temp at 75 in goldfish tank, 78 in betta tank.

    5. Water parameters (method of testing with results for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, pH, KH, GH). 5 in 1 strips- never ammonia or nitrite, nitrate hard to tell exact # from strips, but not high. Last test Wed, ran out of strips... can tell you exact numbers after Sunday when I purchase a liquid test kit. Unable to test for other criteria listed. PH 7.4 at last check.

    6. Care and maintenance (frequency of water changes, feeding, gravel cleaning, quarantine).

    Water changes on 10 gallon were 25% daily while cycling for the first month and a half (I didn't know about the nit. cycle and had already added the fish- started with Tetra Start Zyme, never had spiking issues). Now fully cycled and stable. 25% weekly water changes with syphon, 50% change 1 time a month. Clean filter box in a bucker of tank water every 2 weeks- wipe down walls every week with a Mr Clean magic eraser that was never used before going into tank.
    Bettas eat bloodworms and tetra betta pellets- about 4 total pellets per fish, and less than 1/4 total tsp blood worms. 3 cooked, skinned, and crushed peas added Tues & Thurs. They are fat & happy, but not a ton of scraps crudding up bottom.

    Water changes on 75 gallon are 25% weekly- have been monitoring closely for spikes, and have had none... same practice as for 10 gallon maintenance.
    Goldfish eat azoo 9 in 1 pellets and tetramin granules- about 1/2 tsp total of all pellet/granule food combined daily. Occasionally added blood worms (just a small pinch). 8 cooked, skinned, and smashed peas added Tues and Thurs, along with a little shredded and blanched spinach (1 total baby leaf).

    7. Environment (treatments attempted with results, medications used, fellow tankmates).

    Goldfish added to 75 gallon after establishing tank with bacterial additives and cycled filter material from cycled 10 gallon- everything went GREAT for the first week. 1 moor broke with a grey patch on tail... Bettas + snail moved TEMPORARILY from 10 gallon to 75 gallon to make 10 gallon a hospital tank- all decor also removed. Next morning, grey patch behind eye of 2nd moor. Also moved to 10 gallon. Looks like Costia. Treated with Jungle Ick Guard (victoria green & nitromersol), moor 1 received 1st dose the first day of QT, then 25% water change, and 2nd dose with addition of 2nd fish 24 hrs later. (I realize now moving bettas was a mistake. I am extremely inexperienced... I am purchasing another 10 gallon tank so I can have separate communities and a hospital tank as soon as I can. Everyone in 75 is getting on PERFECTLY- if there had been any issues, they would have been separated immediately. I already made the mistake, and am trying my hardest to do things right. Frankly, I feel like an idiot. Please don't slay me- I am just learning, and trying my best... which is why I am here for help, as I don't know what to do.). Also added theraputic level of jungle aquarium salt to 10 gallon tank, as instructed on salt package. Continued water changes, and ick guard doses, as instructed on bottle for a total of 5 doses. Upon 5th does, moor 2 started showing respiratory distress within 10 min of adding chemical- removed to temp storage with water from 75 gal (also at same salinity- more on that to come) while I did a 75% water change, replacing salinity, and a theraputic dose of stress coat conditioner (2 caps per 10 gallons). Moor 1 seemed aggitated, and a little weak for 24 hrs after, a little hard breathing (mouth movements like when eating)... has since returned to pretty much normal. Activity, appetite, respiration, & alertness for moor 1, at this time, all= good. Moor 2 was gasping at surface when first distressed, is no longer doing that. Still has hard breathing (like the same mouth movements as when they are eating), seems weakened- goes back and forth between trying to chase reflection on glass for a little while, to just kind of sitting and hanging out in middle of tank (no clasped fins, and maintaining upright balance, unless tail is caught in bubbles from airstone, then tips forward, but corrects self quickly. Easily pushed down by filter return- no real tumbling, just rides the wave down, and then back up in the center, but doesn't try to fight against it)- goes between seemingly alert, and looking around a little, to possibly sleeping- a lot of sleeping? Shows some interest in looking at food, but doesn't really want to eat. 3 days since last meal, that I am aware of. Seems to be turning more metallic orange, was always a bit of orange show-through, but I think she used to have more black. It has been 3 days since last dose of Ick Guard, 25% water changes DAILY, with conditioners and maintaining sailinty levels. Also running carbon in filter. Thought I started seeing grey film developing again behind eyes when water temp was at 78, bumped it up to 84 over 24 hours- grey gone, no increase to breathing distress. No surface gasping. I tried adding 1 dose of melafix to water today to see if it would help- IMMEDIATE respiratory distress in moor #2- taken out and placed in temporary holding with water from brita filter while I did a 50% water change, and added reconditioned water with same salinity. After going back- they seem like they were before, as described above. No additional distress. Moor 1 seems pretty much normal- moor 2, same activity level as described and still mouth movements like when eating when breathing. No surface gasping.

    75 Gal tank- 24 hrs after moor 2 was moved to QT/Hosp, other goldies started flashing. Inverts in tank, so no Ick Guard- raised temp to 85-86 over 48 hrs, and increased salt to 1 tbsp per 5 gal simultaneously. No signs of stress- good activity, alertness, appetites. No patches or respiratory issues. Treatment began 6 days ago. Still some flashing in goldies occasionally, but less... no one has broke with illness at all, only a little flashing- NOTHING from bettas at all, completely normal. 15- 25% water changes every other day, siphoning gravel maintaining salt content and using stress coat conditioner as instructions dictate. Is it ok for them to still be flashing occasionally after 6 days?

    8. Other details relating to the problem (anything else you feel is relevant).
    I have ordered some Methylene Blue, and am awaiting its arrival (will be a few more days), as I have read that it can help with both costia, as well as respiratory issues- NOWHERE local carries it. Had planned on dosing the moors with it- do you recommend this, or should I just leave them be? I am worried about the prolonged heavy breathing and lack of appetite in moor 2, and want to help, if I can... what should I do? I added some Fosters & Smith bacterial additive at the end of treatment with Ick Guard, as I have read that it may have knocked my bacterial colonies. I have not seen any spikes, but was unable to test today. No spikes as of Wed. (did a 50% water change today and 25% yesterday, though).

    If you have or can obtain photographs to show us how the affected fish appear, please include them.

    I can try, if you think this will help- just let me know!

    Thank you so much for helping me... I am so new to this, and really want to give these guys a better life. I think I totally screwed up- is there any way I can repair this damage? HELP! :'(
    Last edited by JamieMonster; 03-16-2012 at 3:54 PM. Reason: more detailed info provided.





  2. #2
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    *note* my goldfish measurements include their tails- not just their body sizes. They are still pretty little guys.



  3. #3
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    *note* I ran the carbon filter over night after each new addition of Ick Guard. 25% water change and Ich guard dose at 11 am, filter replaced at 11 pm. Don't know if that matters.
    Last edited by JamieMonster; 03-16-2012 at 4:20 PM. Reason: more detailed info.



  4. #4
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    *note* Change in Moor 1's (Bernie's) condition. The little darling had been doing FINE all day, and for the past 2 or 3 days- ate well at feeding this morning (after water change, and going back into tank), swimming around with no signs of distress at all. Playing in the bubbles from the airstone before I left the room- when I came back, maybe 10 minutes later, he was stuck to the filter pipe on his gill plate, and behind his eye (not strong suction- the female bettas like to stick themselves to it, hang out for a minute, and then swim off all day long. It does not distress them at all, they seem to do it on purpose, and seem to enjoy it. I have a bunch of weirdos here- all healthy & happy, and have been doing it since the first week they were brought home. They can swim past it very easily when they want to- they swim behind it all day chasing their reflections, and only stick when they seem to want to). Got him off of it, and he seemed to be in shock. Not swimming, labored breathing, and now sitting in a little breeder cup type thing to keep him toward the surface of the water not moving around much at all (not gasping at surface for air- just sitting there). This was a few (3 or 4) hours after water changes or ANYTHING was done in tank, and there was NO sign of illness or distress before this happened. I have done NOTHING else in the tank since my original post, I promise. He was playing in the bubbles immediately before. I have looked him over- no physical damage at all. What the heck is going on?

    Moor #2 (Lola) is ok- still not eating, breathing the same- swimming around a bit and playing a little in the filter current, from the look of it. Not resting on bottom at all after the first 24 hours after the original distress from what I believe was the Ick Guard... Possibly getting better? I thought so too with Moor #1, but, now I am just not sure what is going on.

    Anyone got anything for me- besides stop putting stuff in the water to try to help them? Already not going to do that at this point, it seems to be doing more harm than good.

    (FYI- there were 12 other Moors in the tank with the 2 I purchased at the time of purchase, all but these 2 hanging out at tank bottom, it was night & the tank lights were off, so I didn't really think much of it. (the 2 I got were swimming around- have never been strong swimmers the entire time I have had them, but I just accounted that to their fins, and didn't think they might be ill. The other fan tails swim circles around them, and always have- but, these 2 have seemed happy, fairly active, and had good appetites before the costia, and then malachite green dilemma) Upon going back 2 days later, there were NO moors in the tank anymore... I seriously doubt they were all purchased, and upon seeing how weak the 2 I have are, is there a potential I just bought really sick fish? I still want to try to help them, if I can... not giving up, just have no idea of what to do)



  5. #5
    Senior Member Somervell's Avatar
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    Don't beat yourself up over this. It's sometimes hard to figure out what to do when you can't figure out what's wrong with the little guys. I completely understand. As to being new to this, everbody has a learning curve. I have been keeping goldies for about 20 years, and unfortunately, several were sacrificed due to my own inexperience. I still learn new things about them every day. Good for you for reading and trying to do the right thing.

    I tried to read through this the best I could. I think you have made your own diagnosis. Too much stuff in the water. I don't know whether or not you have owned them before, but Moors are kind of lazy fish. They aren't all that active, unless they are spawning. Sure, they swim around, but they don't act like, say, comets.

    The gasping behavior is most likely due to too little aire circulation in the tank. Replacing the pump with a larger one with airstones may really increase the activity level of the moors. I just had to do this on one of my tanks this week when I switched the filter to an in-tank filter and didn't allow for the lack of surface breaking. My fish were gasping, so I added back my airstone and pump. Presto! No more gaping fish. It would be worth trying.

    The second possibility is that you have gotten moors with parasites. This is not at all uncommon with imported goldfish. Most stores I deal with treat them before moving them out, but I doubt if W-mart would. If they had them, they would be flashing ( scratching) themselves on the tank before they got too sick to move. If this is the case, a quick treatment with something gentle like Praziquantel ( Prazi-pro has it as its active ingredient) should take care of it.

    I really believe from all that you have described that they are stressed out from over medication and too little air circulation. I would let them go for a while and not add anything ( what you are doing.) If problems continue, post again, and read up on the parasite issue. Both are cheap fixes to improve the quality of their lives.

    It's great to have another goldfish enthusiast who is so concerned with the little guys' well being write in. Maybe when things get cleared up, you can post pictures of the tank.



  6. #6
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    Thank you SO much, Somervell- I will add in a larger air supply to the hosp. tank that Lola is in. Unfortunately, Bernie didn't make it. I think he may have gotten hurt when he got stuck to the filter, and I just couldn't see it. :'(

    No, I haven't had moors before, but, think they are adorable. The only goldie that I have had before was a fish I won when I was in 3rd grade from a carnival... he got to be about 10 inches long, and lived in a 20 gallon tank with 3 albino cories and some snails for 7 years. Unfortunately, we moved and he couldn't take the move. I had HORRIBLE tank maintenance back then- no water changes (I was a kid), and I think the change in water/ environment stressed him out too badly. Tank was a good fish. LOL.

    I have just a few questions-
    1) how long before I should be concerned about Lola not eating? I can tell she can't really see as well as the fantails, she will swim up and kind of eyeball the food now, but doesn't eat... and isn't searching the gravel. This is going on day 4. Is this ok? Should I slowly lower the temp back down in the hosp. tank from 84 to the usual 75 I keep the big tank for the goldies for her? It is at 84 now, as I saw some grey patches returning 24 hours after stopping the dosages of the Ick Guard, so slowly I raised the temp to 84. The grey was gone by the next evening.

    2) the goldfish in the main tank are flashing now, they started about 24 hrs after Lola showed a big grey patch behind her eye. No one else has come down with any grey patches (like both moors did before moving to hospital)- the water temp is at 86 in there, and I have added salt that is concentrated at 1 tbsp per 5 gallons. This treatment has been going on for 6 days, they are still flashing after this duration, but only in the evening- used to be all day. Would this kill the costia, or should I go ahead and get prazi-pro for them? (is that safe for ghost shrimp and mystery snails?) The bettas that are in the big tank while their tank is being used as a hospital aren't flashing at all- no signs of anything from those little guys, only the goldfish- all 4 of them.

    I will gladly post some pics of the tanks for everyone! I am not quite done with the 75 yet, and the 10 is currently taken apart, but, I am hoping to have them both put together soon! I will take some pics as soon as I get them both healthy and ready for some pics.

    Thank you again SO much for your help- please bear with me as I learn what to do with all of this. THANK YOU!!!!
    Last edited by JamieMonster; 03-17-2012 at 10:46 AM.



  7. #7
    Senior Member Somervell's Avatar
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    Really sorry to hear about Burnie It's hard to lose a fish-- especially goldies.

    Let me see if I can answer your questions. Maybe someone else with more experience will chime in.

    1. Try feeding her sinking food. Telescopes just aren't good at feeding on floating pellets or flake. I recommend the Omega One or Hikari lines if you don't want to make a homemade gel food. Mine have done fine on commercial pellet food, but serious breeders make their own, usually. I have a blind panda moor that I actually have to hand feed. (She may just be trained to be lazy at this point ) It doesn't really matter; they find food by smell. It's just harder for telescopes to forage on the tank bottom. The fantails may just be out competing her for food. She won't starve in four days, if that's what you're asking.

    2. I would lower the temperature. 84 isn't that comfortable for goldies, and may explain the sluggish behavior. I keep mine at about 72; some keep theirs higher, others lower, but they seem most active at between 70-72 degrees.

    3. Prazi is fairly gentle, and as far as I know will not hurt the snails. I don't know about shrimp. I wouldn't trust even small goldies with shrimp, anyway. They have a tendency to become dinner for them. There are several things that I always have on hand in case they are needed-- praziquantel for parasites (won't treat ich, though. Excellent for flukes, however.) kanamycin for baterial infections and a sulfa based medicated food (I use Medigold) to make sure that antibiotics can reach the fish if I am NOT using the Kanamycin. ( I may have spelled this wrong.) I have had to order Prazi online. None of my LFS have it. The same was true for the kanamycin. Kana-Plex by Seachem is a brand name for that. I use antibiotics as a last resort with bacterial infections, after I have tried pristine water and yes, I'll admit it, Melafix for abrasions or cuts.

    One thing that you want to make sure of is that what you are treating as Costia isn't really columnaris. It looks like a fungus, but is actually a bacterial infection that produces white or gray stringy patches. It looks mucusy, if that's a word. If it is columnaris, treating it with ich guard is not going to help the problem. Real fungus is patchy and fuzzy, like mold on fruit. If it's bacterial, the salt might help, but the increased heat will probably make a bacterial infection progress more quickly. It sounds like there has been so much medication in the water, that it may be hard to tell what is going on.

    If it is actually costia, then the same medications that kill ich should kill it, as well.

    Are you sure that they are flashing and not just playing? They are really goofy fish at times! A flashing goldfish will obviously rub itself against ornaments, the side of the tank, other goldfish-- whatever-- just to get relief from a parasite. Usually, the behavior is pretty clear.

    I will tell you honestly that I am to great at diagnosis. Maybe if you put a picture of the fish if/when if has a whitish patch on the board, someone would be better able to help you. If there's anything else that I can do, feel free to PM, but I am certain that there are others here with more goldfish experience than I have.



  8. #8
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    Thank you again, for both the advise and well wishes! I turned down the tank temp in Lola's hospital tank to 75, it is in the process of falling. I will keep a close eye for patches starting to pop up again. I tried adding a larger air source (larger pump with same, single air stone), and she went cartwheeling all over the tank. I have the smaller pump back on now, and she sat at the bottom for a good hour resting- now she is swimming around a little again. I put some sinking granule food in there, along with a small chip of algae wafer to see if she wants to eat- I don't think she will, but, giving her the opportunity. She's still hanging in there, no change for better or worse as of this point.

    Main tank is DEFINITELY flashing. Rubbing pretty hard against plastic plants and heater, doing a circle up to top of water to dive bomb back down and scrape against gravel. Darting across tank like alarmed, and then scratching on plants. Infrequent, but still happening, mostly in the evening. Again, only the goldfish, the bettas are totally fine. (bettas have also been spoiled & pampered for 3 mos in pristine water with good care. Strong immune systems. Goldfish came from Walmart 2 weeks ago, where they were pretty much victims of animal abuse- probably not too strong immune system wise)

    Went back to Walmart to check- most fish in EVERY tank are affected. No columns, mucous, or cottony tufts- they have filmy grey patches on surface of scales, some with what looks like ulcerating lesions underneath starting to pop up. Lots of dead fish- lots of bottom clinging & gasping. Almost all missing scales here & there- some even missing gill plates. The fish were NOT that bad 2 weeks ago when I bought mine. The store is doing NOTHING to treat them. My white fantail also came home with a few missing scales (maybe 4)- he was already in the bag when I noticed them, asked clerk about it, and he said that happens sometimes when the fish are shipped. Now I seriously doubt it.

    I didn't snap pics at Walmart, and none of my fish are currently patchy (hoping it stays that way)- but it looked EXACTLY like this when they had it break out.

    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=costi...t:429,r:3,s:15

    Ordered some prazi-pro... and also have methylene blue coming. I won't use the malachite green again- I am just too inexperienced for how harsh it seems to be. Keeping temp at 86 and salt at 1 tbsp/5 gal in the 75 gallon for now. No one seems stressed by it- besides itching all over everything a few times a day, they all seem fine.

    Thanks again- You rock!



  9. #9
    Senior Member Somervell's Avatar
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    Sure. Hope that Lola will start eating soon. I have never treated costia. My understanding is that it is treated with the same medications as ich, so, as I said, Prazi won't help. I guess the same advice applies, that you want to vac the bottom of the tank frequently and do water changes as directed. Please keep posting. I always look forward to learning new things.

    Sometimes with ich, you cure the fish of parasites and secondary bacterial infections can occur from the outbreak. That might be what is happening at the "mart" and causing the lesions. Goldfish are cheap, and tend to be treated as disposable in big box stores, sadly. If you don't treat a tank, and have generally not so good water quality, that's what happens.



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    I hope you're having a great weekend- the weather is FANTASTIC here in Chicago. More like May or June than March. I'll take it! LOL.

    The news on Lola is somewhat the same- the temp in the tank is lowered to 75, and there are no new patches... so that is good. Her energy seems to have dropped off a bit, going between swimming around lazily and resting a bit- mostly off the substrate, but has been down for a few minutes here & there. BUT, she pooped a little today... so, I guess she must have eaten a little bit. It was just a white string (not slimy, no eggs in it- HOPING it doesn't mean she has internal parasites, too), but at least it was something! Maybe she is slowly getting her appetite back? I have the filter shut off, as it freaked me out when Bernie got stuck to it. Going to look to see the prices on a plain 5 or 10 gal at Petsmart today, so I can possibly use that with a sponge filter, air stone, a baggie full of substrate from the established 10 gallon, and daily water changes. It might be easier for her to find food, and for me to keep an eye on if she is eating without substrate. If she even pulls through, it looks like it is going to be the long haul before she is ready for going back to the big tank... & I'd prefer to get the bettas back in their home.

    Keeping the main (75 gal) tank at 86 for 48 more hours before dropping the temp down to where they are comfortable. From everything I have read, costia can not survive that temp, and its life cycle is not long. If they are still flashing after that, I am going to assume they came home with something in addition to the costia, as well... and maybe give ONE dose of the prazi-pro a shot, to see if they flash after that. I don't know what to look for for something like flukes, etc. Any input, there? They look completely normal & healthy to me, so ???

    I know- the state of the big box stores is kind of sad. It is particularly horrible at the WM I went to... the Petsmart is just pretty much typical. At least the fish there seems to be receiving care, and are getting cleaned, though. Even the Oscars and other more expensive fish at WM were covered in film and not doing so great. Yikes. I am active with animal rescue with dogs and cats (and a guinea pig, right now, too)- so, this is an area that I can be kind of proactive & sensitive about... just one of my little quirks.

    Again, thank you so much! I look forward to posting some pics of my new, little, finned friends & their homes as soon as I get them all straightened out & healthy. I looked into that gel food idea, and it looks very interesting! I don't intend on breeding, but, good nutrition is ALWAYS a good thing! I do organic gardening in my back yard in the warm seasons... I just might have to give that a shot when I am done with the massive container of pellets I just bought... or, maybe try mixing them in instead of canned sardines? Hmmm... it's a thought!

    Have a great day!



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