Possible SW options for a SW less than newbie

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authmal

Pseudonovice
Aug 4, 2011
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Phoenix, AZ
Well, the wife just surprised me by calling on her way home from work, and finally gave the okay to set up the "spare" 55. Now, I have to decide salt, or fresh. I have a couple ideas for either, but am kinda leaning toward salt.

If I do SW, corals are a down the road scenario, because I won't be investing in quality lighting for a while. My idea is for some live rock, some live sand, some dead rock (whatever is good to use for that) and some aragonite sand (since the latter two, as I understand it, will become "live" over time) with a few fish and inverts. I actually preferred the idea of a 40 breeder, because it's got a bigger footprint, but I do have this 55 just sitting there already. I don't know if a sump would be necessary for this size tank (and what size), or if I could use an AC 70 (I'd pull it off of my fresh tank, and replace that one with an AC 110, since it's already well seeded) to augment the filtration by the live rock/sand. I understand powerheads are much more important on salt tanks, so I plan to have one running the down each long part of the tank, to create a clockwise (or counter clockwise) circulation. Would the beneficial bacteria from freshwater still be viable and functional in salt?

For fish, I am leaning toward a fairly lightly stocked tank, as listed below.
Black Ocellaris, Picasso, or possibly Maroon Clownfish, x 2 (that is the order of preference)
Neon Goby x 2-4
Banggai Cardinalfish x 2-4
Peppermint shrimp in some quantity, as well as some nerites and Turbo Snails.
My wife would like something yellow in the tank. If the other clowns or cardinals will eat the fry, mollies may do the trick.

My big concern is that I'd like an anemone of some type, and I'm not sure how well that would do with the other fish listed. And yes, I'm aware enough of the risk of hitchhikers on the live rock to know that I should observe day and night, to see if I can spot potentially dangerous hitchhikers.

So, advice? I even mean as "basic" as how much live sand/rock to the dead sand/rock, and so on. I know my LFS won't deliberately steer me wrong, but they still stand to gain from any misunderstandings. At the least, I don't have RO/DI in the house, so I'd be going back for their pre-mixed salt water.
 

ThatNewFishGuy

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May 4, 2010
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If ur considering corals down the road, I would just invest in a coral capable light right now. Buying one fixture now and then having to buy another down the road seems like a waste to me.

Also if ur going for corals, I would do a.sump. itll add water volume which will keep things more.stable...plus its a place to keep a protein skimmer that ull want to pick up down the line.as well.

Im no expert on the bacteria thing but my first thoughts is that u wouldnt really be able to seed the tank with that bacteria. I think fresh and salt water.have different sets of bacterias that live in them so exposing one type to the opposite water would just kill it. But then again it may die and cause the ammonia spike u need to cycle the tank...im just rambling and speculating at this point, ull have to wait for someone else to come along on this.

All in all I would just use a sterile filter rather than using one from an established fresh tank. The filter will seed as u cycle the tank.

For sand, it depends on if u want a deep sand bed which has its own set of pros and cons. With live rock, the traditional rule is.one pound per gallon.. personally I think that rule tends to give.far more.rock than I like in my tank...makes it look cluttered.

Dont know how that nem will fare with those fish but make sure to wait atleast 6 months before adding it. Generally, Nems dont do well in new tanks.


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TL1000RSquid

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Apr 6, 2011
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Sump is always good no matter the size of the main tank if you can do it I'd highly recommend doing so, for size as big as you can fit, atleast a 20L. If you can't do it I'd do the AC110 on the 55 instead of the ac70.

FW bacteria won't help you.

I'd avoid the maroons if possible, they can be aggressive towards other fish and you.

If you need other yellow fish, midas blennys come in a goldish color, assessor basslet. Molly fry would be eaten if you want to go that route.

Let the tank mature 6-12 months before getting a anemone, you'll also need decent lighting if you want something that clowns will host.

I'd shoot for atleast 1.5lbs of rock per gallon. 15-20% live rock will get your cycle kicked off and maybe let you find a few hitchhikers, or you can just go all dry rock and dose with ammonia.
 

authmal

Pseudonovice
Aug 4, 2011
2,621
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Phoenix, AZ
If it matters, I wasn't planning on buying a light fixture for the time being. All I was going to do was move a floor lamp to be near the tank for lighting, and swap out one of its "arms" for a daylight or 50/50 CFL.

How big of a sump is needed for a 55? Would a 10 gallon tank be big enough? I doubt it, but it's something I already have. Otherwise, I'll have to try to find something suitable from the dollar per gallon sale if it's still going on, or troll Craigslist.

I was afraid you were going to say that the bacteria types were different. I have a feeling that's the case, but, no matter, I'll just cycle from scratch. I've still got a lot of overall learning to do. A few more months to set up a saltwater tank isn't that long, especially since I've been looking at one for about a year already. Granted, I've only been plotting for a 29 or 37, but since the wife wants the space where the extra 55 is, she wants that used.

How does live sand compare to live rock in the "pound per gallon" scenario? Evenly? Is one "heavier" than the other? How long does it take for dead sand/rock to become live? Obviously, that'll be the first thing I put in. I want a deep enough sand bed that I don't have to worry about rock scratching or breaking the bottom of my tank. Beyond that, I don't know enough about saltwater to know why one would go deep or shallow sand.

I like the look of the rose (or is it rosy) bubble tip, but I just don't know how nems will do with fish other than clowns. If I had to choose between the fish and the nem, well, the nem will never make it in to the tank. The clowns can host something else.
 

authmal

Pseudonovice
Aug 4, 2011
2,621
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Phoenix, AZ
I must've sat on that previous reply for a while before sending it, since I didn't see your comment about the sump, Squid. I'm pretty sure my LFS has prebuilt some sumps that are 20h and larger. I haven't looked all that closely, although, I'll be in there today/tomorrow. Depends on how motivated I get cleaning out my QT and setting it back up for some rummynose tetras and an angel. That'll give me a chance to look at sumps. There is another LFS that I occasionally visit that has *many* sumps ready to go.

Is there a common ratio of sump size to tank size? I have read that in freshwater sumps, it's recommended to have fast growing plants in the sump to help absorb nitrates, and on an opposite lighting cycle of the main tank so there aren't pH and CO2 swings. What goes in the saltwater sumps, aside from mechanical filtration (floss, sponges, I'll probably have some floss under sponges, or in the flow to the next stage of the sump) and biological filtration (as in bio balls/pot scrubbies/whatever)? Are there saltwater plants that are aquarium friendly? If so, does that mean there are animals that can be found or bred with such plants that are good to have in the return to the tank, as they'll provide small live food objects? Obviously, a sump is a great place to tuck heaters, skimmers and the like.

So, to make sure there's good circulation, will I need 2 power heads in the tank, or will the return from the sump work as a power head, and I'll just need another to provide complementary circulation?

T8 lighting would be absolute crap on a saltwater tank, for anything other than simply providing light, right? I have hoods and a pair of T8 ballasts (desperately in need of replacement bulbs, but as they've not been in use, it's not been addressed) that I could use to provide light. I doubt T8, at the wattages typical, has the PAR to be useful for corals are nems.

How do you know if you need a skimmer? How often should you do water changes on a saltwater tank?

Would a HOB overflow be a good idea, if the power goes out, preventing the tank from being drained to the point that the sump overflows and kills the carpet? That way, there's no active draw, so it would only resume if the power head on the return is running, which would prevent that situation from happening, right?

Obviously, you can tell that I know research is key, so there's no intention of rapid movement, other than possibly getting the tank placed in the general area it's going to be.
 

Branden_Pearson

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Jun 9, 2012
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I would forget about the nem until you can get some decent reef lighting. Also I would stay away from the floor lamp idea since I'm betting with normal house bulbs that could cause algae problems. As far as a sump goes really the bigger the better. More water volume equals more stability in water parameters. In the sump I would say away from bio balls and things like that since all that does is catch junk and become a nitrate factory. If you want mechanical filtration the best thing you can do is use filter socks unless you dot mind cleaning sponges a ton so they don't become nitrate factories also. Your bio filtration will come from your rock which is why at least a pound per gallon is a general rule. If you don't like the look of all the rock you can always put some in the sump. As far as plants go macro algae in a refugium is always a nice help to keep phosphates and nitrates down a little lower. You can do all dry sand and rock and just seed with a fist sized piece if good live rock. Your water change schedule will depend on many things such as tank stock, feeding regiment, and equipment such as skimmer or media reactors. A good skimmer can save you money on salt in the long run due to needing less frequent water changes.

For stocking I would also stay away from the maroon clown since they can get aggressive.
For yellow you can do a yellow wrasse or Midas blenny.
Stay away from damsels because once they become jerks and you want them gone good luck catching them.
Before putting any fish in make sure you are 100 percent sure they are the right choice because catching them in all the rock = a bad day or even a bad week.

Hope this helps


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TL1000RSquid

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Apr 6, 2011
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the prebagged live sand such as caribsea stuff I'd skip and just get dry arag unless you want the colors of the caribsea stuff. Unless you get it fresh off the truck from the factory chances are no live bacteria left after sitting for months. A small amount of sand out of an established system however would be excellent for seeding dry sand. I'd shoot for about 2" sand depth that'll give you enough for any sand diggers/dwellers. If your worried about the bottom of the tank get a piece of egg crate/light diffuser from home depot and place on bottom of the tank, then add your rocks get your scape figured out then add sand. You don't want the rock sitting on top of the sand especially if you get pistol shrimp, or some burrowing gobies/blennies. A 55 will probably take about 3 20lb bags.

Bubble tips are fine with the fish listed, they aren't to aggressive and none of the fish you want would pose any threat to it.

For sump size its best to go as big as you can possibly go, more water volume means more stability, and the bigger the sump the more equipment you can hide down there, fuge compartment would also be a big plus thats where you would keep some more sand, rock rubble, and macro algae, and can be used as a prison for bad hitchhikers and misbehaving fish waiting to be rehomed. reefs2go.com and reefcleaners.org are good places to get macro algaes, copepods are what you'd want to seed the fuge with.

Yes 2 circulation pumps gph rating pending future coral plans. The return will aid in circulation some.

Yes wouldn't count on t8's doing much for coral, some shrooms and polyps might be ok under it but no nem's for sure.

Skimmer is always a good idea, you can get away with out with fish only but once you want to start adding corals I'd make sure you have one. Water changes weekly or every other week with just fish, weekly with corals you want to replenish the elements that are used by the corals

Internal or hob overflow with the right plumbing setup you can avoid power outage floods.
 

authmal

Pseudonovice
Aug 4, 2011
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Phoenix, AZ
The nem would wait until I was ready to start thinking about corals, so good lighting would be in place. I understand they're kind of a hybrid organism in that they both are capable of consuming prey and photosynthesizing.

As for the floor lamp, the regular bulb would be at the top, and well above the tank, and pointing away, so it would do almost nothing to light the tank. The movable arm would have a CFL, either a 6500k daylight or 50/50 actinic, and would be short term lighting at best. I also have a pair of 24 inch T8 fixtures I could use instead, if it comes down to it, just have to figure out what available bulbs in that size would be best on those.

So, sponge/floss mechanical filtration is a freshwater thing, filter socks (always wondered what those were for) are for saltwater, in general. Bioballs and the like are unnecessary in saltwater, because the live rock/sand fills that role. I'll just have to make sure to have something that'll stir up the sand, like snails or something that will dig a bit to keep stuff from building up too much. Rock in the sump? Duh. That should've been an obvious option. Macroalgae in the sump to help reduce nitrates/phosphates? I'm sure I can find some. I like biological solutions to tank problems where possible, especially if they're things I like anyway. For instance, I plan to have a snail problem in my current 55 FW, so I have an excuse to get assassin snails. I had clown loaches before, for the same reason.

And yes, I definitely plan to research stocking before it happens. That's why I'm here! :thm: I'd rather do it right by getting some guidance first, than being :irked: because I didn't know enough to do it right the first time, and cost myself money/time and creating a bad tank for my fish. Speaking of, I hadn't really looked at wrasses, but a pair of the yellows would make my wife *very* happy, and should be okay with the clowns, gobies, and cardinalfish, it seems. I'll probably go the Picasso Clown route, just to have a more varied array of colors.

I'd kind of like to breed these cardinalfish, so I feel 3 or 4 would give a better chance of having the right numbers. It's not a primary goal, but I definitely would be happy if it happened.

Will those fish I listed all eat molly fry?
 

TL1000RSquid

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Apr 6, 2011
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I think i'd just use the t8's with 50/50's until you can upgrade.

pods will live and breed in piles of rock rubble, attach plants, also handy to have little pieces of rock in there once you start fragging corals. Yep plants help fight nitrates and phosphates. Nassarius and dwarf planaxis snails are good burrowers and members of the clean up crew.

Never kept benggai's but I hear they do breed easy, might have to cultivate live food to feed them the first few weeks.

Molly fry won't last, had 2 always preg females every 30 days they'd pop out a batch most of the time fry were gone before i ever got to see them, only other fish at the time were 2 clowns, dragonet and an angelfish.
 
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