Let's Talk About Endlers

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ZorroNet

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I see mention of Endlers being suggested on AC all the time, but I know very little about them or why they are suggested so often. It seems that the trend is to suggest them for smaller setups. This is just a general inquiry. I have regular guppies, and I've been learning a lot about them. I do like guppies now that I have some experience with them as an adult. (I had them as a kid, but knew very little about them then.) Are there some advantages to endlers that I am not aware of in comparison to guppies? Fill me in... I might be interested :)
 

THE V

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Endlers used to be considered a different species than a guppy. They have sinced been classified as a guppy due to no breeding Incompatability.

They are generally about 1/2 the size of fancy guppies at maturity. Thus makes them better suited for smaller tanks.
 

ZorroNet

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So they will interbreed with guppies? I guess that means they aren't well suited to being housed together unless they are same sex. Is that correct?
 

Fishfriend1

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Yes I believe so (not an expert). I've also found that endlers are more colorful (though I find them a little tacky) than guppies, but I suppose that depends on the ancestry of the endlers.
 

qwe123

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They definitely crossbreed, I have plenty of hybrids myself. But if you like guppies, I'd definitely look into the different patterns you can get in endlers, they're beautiful imo. And just as easy to care for as guppies.

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Byron Amazonas

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As others have noted, the Endler livebearer, Poecilia (Acanthophacelus) wingei, closely resembles the common guppy, Poecilia reticulata, and some authors have considered both to be the same species. The two species do hybridize and produce fertile offspring, as was mentioned by qwe123. However, Schories et al. (2009) determined that P. wingei is now unequivocally defined by the molecular phylogeny as a valid species. A third distinct guppy species, Poecilia (Acanthophacelus) obscura, was described from Trinidad by Schories et al (2009); you can read the paper here if interested:
http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2009/f/zt02266p050.pdf

The three guppy species have been placed in the sub-genus Acanthophacelus, that is considered to be generically different from all other taxa in the Poeciliinae subfamily, forming a cryptic species complex.

The common name "Endler's Guppy" honours John Endler who "discovered" the species in 1975, although it was actually first discovered in 1937 by Franklin Bond. The species is feared to be extinct in the habitat lake in which it was discovered due to pollution from garbage. A second possible site was mentioned by Dr. Endler but he was unable to find it. Schories et al. (2009) document this species occurring in the Cumana region.

It was not until 2005 that the species was scientifically described as a distinct species by F.N. Poeser, M. Kempkes & I.J.H. Isbrucker. The genus name Poecilia comes from the Greek poikilos meaning "with different colours" and the species epithet honours the ichthyologist Dr. Ojvind Winge. Poeser et al. (2005) proposed re-establishing the genus name Acanthophacelus, originally erected by Eigenmann in 1907 and subsequently deemed a synonym for Poecilia, as a sub-genus of Poecilia. As mentioned above, Schories et al. (2009) have followed this provisional sub-classification for the (now) three guppy species on the basis of generic differences from the other species in the subfamily.
 

dougall

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They have sinced been classified as a guppy due to no breeding Incompatability.
I didn't think they had been officially classified as a guppy, just the same genus; I.E. P. Wingei vs. P. Reticulata... But if there's an official classification I'd love to see it. Maybe I should join the ALA :)


Generally speaking, AFAIK, A large number of people believe they are the same species with different locations/collection points... Different colors and sizes, but that's really not what defines a species; Talk to Killifish people of you don't understand.


Generally speaking they are smaller, than your average petstore guppy, certainly males with smaller tails and bodies, so you can keep more in the same tank.

If you're looking to breed and sell fish, they are easy, and will likely fetch a better price than an average fancy guppy (It's possible that different finnage and color will get better prices from guppies, depending on current market and fashion), but if you're looking for a fish to keep just for yourself they can be quite prolific, they are guppies ;)


I've seen fish that are direct descendants from those collected by Dr. Endler (given by Endler to Dr. Kallman, given to Domenic Isla, Given to Joe Ferdenzi), I've seen the popular hybrids (Snakeskin, tiger etc.) and to me they look just like plain old fancy guppies.

And anyone interested in reading a little more, or a little more food for thought, my favorite article on the matter - The Emperor Wears no Clothes By Dr. Ted Coletti for TFH magazine in 2007.


At the end of the day, it's just a guppy. Keep them if you like the look of them but you will have lots and lots in the future. For the sake of the hobby try to keep them as pure as you got them, they really don't need additional genes in there and taking endlers and breeding with guppies and then distributing will just diminish endlers as their own entity and force them screaming into guppyhood.
 

gmh

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One thing to consider is the female Endler is MUCH larger than the colorful male. While the males do have spectacular colors, the females are drab, more so than female Guppies.
You may find that a mixed Endler tank is less colorful than a mixed Guppy tank for this reason.
 

ZorroNet

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Doug makes a good point. We should be responsible and not interbreed them even if they will to preserve the species.

Byron, as always, you blow my mind with your scientific knowledge. That was a very cool piece of information to read. Thank you for that link!

I think I'll stick to guppies for now, and then maybe I'll give Endlers a try when I have another tank I can dedicate to them alone. Thanks all for the discussion!
 

THE V

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The two species do hybridize and produce fertile offspring, as was mentioned by qwe123. However, Schories et al. (2009) determined that P. wingei is now unequivocally defined by the molecular phylogeny as a valid species.
These two statements are absolutely hilarious together. There is a ongoing conflict in the classification of organisms with-in taxonomy. Humans like to categorize things into nice little distinct segments. Life however doesn't really care about that. "Unequivocally defined" had me spraying my computer with coffee.

There are two groups in Taxonomy - Those that feel that a random percentage of molecular difference (usually defined by the author) and those that think things like morphology, viability of offspring etc... still count. I'm in the latter and completely disagree with this papers conclusions.

Do I think that this represents a population that is evolving towards speciation. Absolutely, is it there yet - NO!! They are way too easy to hybridize and produce fertile offspring.

This type of disagreement is very common in Science and is normal. I doubt that it will be resolved in the next few centuries.

Now if you want to have fun with Taxonomy - start looking at plant life. I've personally had the joy of attempting to produce RIL's with a wide cross with around 65% incompatibility in Cucumis melo. Yeah that ended up in a failure when I started with 250 F2's and lost 150 lines attempting the F3. It's still considered one species however.
 
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