What nutrient deficiency is this?

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PattyCakes81

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Jun 26, 2010
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Patricia
Hi guys,
Can you help me to figure out what deficiency is this on my Amazon sword plant?
uploadfromtaptalk1397485399791.jpg
Any help is greatly appreciated
Patty

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SnakeIce

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I have an observation that could make nutrient conjectures irrelevant. Those look like emersed grown leaves, and as such would be subject to that kind of deterioration regardless of the nutrient levels. It doesn't seem to be nitrogen, because the older leaves would turn yellow first. That damage is a little bit like Potassium (K) deficiency, but looks more like general rot than typical K deficiency. Did the hole start as a single small point like a pinhole, or was it a general area that started to go bad. Pin holes are classic K deficiency signs, but the leaf could be just failing to survive being underwater.
 

Byron Amazonas

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The emersed/submersed issue is pertinent. But if these are submersed leaves, the issue is iron excess caused by a calcium deficiency. I have gone through this myself. When calcium is in low supply, aquatic plants use iron to build cells (not sure why, it just happens) and the iron deposits are more than what the plant normally requires, so they form brown patches which will expand and eventually kill the leaf, and the plant.

This affects the larger "swords" much more than the smaller chain swords; I nearly lost all my Echinodorus grisebachii (E. bleheri) before I discovered the issue. There is insufficient "hard" minerals in most liquid plant fertilizers because most people have sufficient in the source water. I happen to have very soft tap water, and have to add the hard minerals to prevent this issue. I see you are in New York, and if memory serves me, you have soft water (which is a blessing aside from this one issue, lol). Do you know the GH? You can ascertain this from the water supply people, likely on their website. I can proceed with suggesting the fix if this is the problem.

Byron.
 

PattyCakes81

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Jun 26, 2010
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Patricia
I have an observation that could make nutrient conjectures irrelevant. Those look like emersed grown leaves, and as such would be subject to that kind of deterioration regardless of the nutrient levels. It doesn't seem to be nitrogen, because the older leaves would turn yellow first. That damage is a little bit like Potassium (K) deficiency, but looks more like general rot than typical K deficiency. Did the hole start as a single small point like a pinhole, or was it a general area that started to go bad. Pin holes are classic K deficiency signs, but the leaf could be just failing to survive being underwater.
So you think it might be emersed growth. Whoa! The new growth looks healthy. It didn't start as pin holes.
The emersed/submersed issue is pertinent. But if these are submersed leaves, the issue is iron excess caused by a calcium deficiency. I have gone through this myself. When calcium is in low supply, aquatic plants use iron to build cells (not sure why, it just happens) and the iron deposits are more than what the plant normally requires, so they form brown patches which will expand and eventually kill the leaf, and the plant.

This affects the larger "swords" much more than the smaller chain swords; I nearly lost all my Echinodorus grisebachii (E. bleheri) before I discovered the issue. There is insufficient "hard" minerals in most liquid plant fertilizers because most people have sufficient in the source water. I happen to have very soft tap water, and have to add the hard minerals to prevent this issue. I see you are in New York, and if memory serves me, you have soft water (which is a blessing aside from this one issue, lol). Do you know the GH? You can ascertain this from the water supply people, likely on their website. I can proceed with suggesting the fix if this is the problem.

Byron.
Yes I have soft water. I don't know the GH of my tap water. I try looking in the NYC water supply website but it said every other component but it didn't specifically mention GH.

Just in case you need this info:
20 gallon high tank

3 bulb light fixture with 3-13 watt spiral daylight 65K bulbs

Lights on from 12:20pm to 8:20pm

Root tabs under the sword & crypts plants.

Currently no type of ferts.

If you need any further information let me know.

Thank you for taking the time to help us newbies out!

Patty


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Byron Amazonas

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I tracked down the 2012 water report for NYC (couldn't seem to load the 2013, but 2012 is fine for GH) and the hardness is stated to be in the range of 19 ppm, which is 1 dGH, so this is the issue. My tap water is about 7 ppm or 0.5 dGH. You will need to add the hard minerals. And btw, this will manifest itself on the older leaves (which is why new leaves from the centre of the crown appear fine) because plants transfer some nutrients from old to new leaves when there is a shortage. They put their energy into new growth.

What tabs are you using? If they are the Seachem Flourish Tabs, they contain calcium but no where near sufficient to make up for this, as I said previously; same with most others.

The easiest way to deal with this is to use a specific nutrient source. I use Seachem's Equilibrium which is a powder; their new line AquaVitro has a liquid product to raise GH. The Equilibrium is much less expensive for me. You want to raise the GH from the present 1 dGH up to no less than 4 dGH. I now keep one tank at 5 dGH and the other at 6 dGH and I do not see this calcium deficiency. These products are intended for plants, so they do not impact pH. Soft water fish have difficulties in harder water, so it is important to use the right products.

I would also recommend a liquid fertilizer, I use Flourish Comprehensive Supplement; it takes very little, and this liquid has everything in proportion [but again insufficient hard minerals]. Some nutrients cannot be taken up via the roots but only the leaves, so the liquid handles this aspect. Brightwell Aquatics have an identical product called FlorinMulti.

Calcium is a major macro nutrient; plants cannot build cells without calcium (just like we cannot build bones without calcium).

Byron.
 

PattyCakes81

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I tracked down the 2012 water report for NYC (couldn't seem to load the 2013, but 2012 is fine for GH) and the hardness is stated to be in the range of 19 ppm, which is 1 dGH, so this is the issue. My tap water is about 7 ppm or 0.5 dGH. You will need to add the hard minerals. And btw, this will manifest itself on the older leaves (which is why new leaves from the centre of the crown appear fine) because plants transfer some nutrients from old to new leaves when there is a shortage. They put their energy into new growth.

What tabs are you using? If they are the Seachem Flourish Tabs, they contain calcium but no where near sufficient to make up for this, as I said previously; same with most others.

The easiest way to deal with this is to use a specific nutrient source. I use Seachem's Equilibrium which is a powder; their new line AquaVitro has a liquid product to raise GH. The Equilibrium is much less expensive for me. You want to raise the GH from the present 1 dGH up to no less than 4 dGH. I now keep one tank at 5 dGH and the other at 6 dGH and I do not see this calcium deficiency. These products are intended for plants, so they do not impact pH. Soft water fish have difficulties in harder water, so it is important to use the right products.

I would also recommend a liquid fertilizer, I use Flourish Comprehensive Supplement; it takes very little, and this liquid has everything in proportion [but again insufficient hard minerals]. Some nutrients cannot be taken up via the roots but only the leaves, so the liquid handles this aspect. Brightwell Aquatics have an identical product called FlorinMulti.

Calcium is a major macro nutrient; plants cannot build cells without calcium (just like we cannot build bones without calcium).

Byron.
Bryon thank you so much for all the help. Especially in tracking form the water report. :thumbup:

So, I should get Seachem equilibrium and dosed to no less than 4dGH. Also start dosing some kind of ferts.

The root tabs am using are the ones Bob from tropical plants sells.

What you think about my photoperiod and wattage?

Lights on from 12:20pm to 8:00pm.

Have 39 watts of daylight 6500K of spiral fluorescent bulbs.

Once again thank you for the help. Out is greatly appreciated!
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Byron Amazonas

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Jul 22, 2013
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Byron
Bryon thank you so much for all the help. Especially in tracking form the water report. :thumbup:

So, I should get Seachem equilibrium and dosed to no less than 4dGH. Also start dosing some kind of ferts.

The root tabs am using are the ones Bob from tropical plants sells.

What you think about my photoperiod and wattage?

Lights on from 12:20pm to 8:00pm.

Have 39 watts of daylight 6500K of spiral fluorescent bulbs.

Once again thank you for the help. Out is greatly appreciated!
Sent from my SGH-T989 using MonsterAquariaNetwork App
This is a 20g high/normal, correct? I have two 10w CFL 6500K bulbs over my 20g and plants thrive. As you have three 13w, you might consider removing one of them and see what if anything occurs. This is I gather still a fairly new setup, so algae might begin to cause trouble. You don't mention floating plants, which help in this by shading. The duration is fine; my tanks are lit for 8 hours daily, no more or I see brush algae increasing. It's all about balance.

On the fertilizer, to start I would suggest the liquid on its own at first. Flourish Comprehensive Supplement [they make several under this name, be sure it is the comprehensive] once a week; half a teaspoon after the water change. And you have the substrate tabs you mentioned. {Can you give me a link to some info on these, or do you know what is in them?] I would go with this combo for three weeks before changing further; it takes a couple weeks I find for plants to begin showing adjustments you make to light and nutrients. At the end of three weeks, report back; if the brown blotches are increasing, then I would suggest the Equilibrium. No point in spending money and adding stuff un-necessarily, and you may be fine.

Thank you for the kind words. When i can offer assistance, I am more than happy to do so; I know what it is like to have plants failing, or fish dying, and wonder how to solve it. After more than 25 years at this, I am still learning too.

Byron.
 

PattyCakes81

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Jun 26, 2010
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Staten Island, New York
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Patricia
Thank you all for ask the help.:D

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