Need some advice

Kannan Fodder · Jun 8, 2014

While I've kept an aquarium for years, it's always been a 20g, with the brief exception when I had a 40g. I've had the same 20g tank setup for the past 10 years. I did replace the filter within the last 2 years, because the old one just gave out after years of faithful service. I have also replaced the heater, for the same reason.

That said, I'm moving soon and will be able to set up a larger tank. However, where I'm moving has very hard water, and the house I'm moving into has a water softener. While I don't really want it, I have been told it's a necessity to avoid costly damage from the hard water. I'm concerned, because as I understand it, water softeners add salt to the water, and this doesn't seem good for fish. Are my instincts right about this? And is this already covered somewhere else?

When I set up my first 20g, under gravel filters were the norm (or at least the easiest), but now they seem to be phased out. After replacing several air pumps, I did install a Whisper filter that hangs off the back of the tank as a back up. I eventually replaced it with a Petco brand equivalent, but I find I like it much better than the under gravel. Now I'm seeing submersible filters, bio wheel filters, canister filters, and the tank mounted variety I'm now familiar with. I'm curious if one is better than the rest, and where this might have already been discussed. I'm also seeing a lot of people using a combination of filters, so am naturally curious as to why.

Also, I've read a lot about cycling a new aquarium, and how it's beneficial to either add water from an established tank or use filtration or medium from an established tank to start the biological cycle in the new tank. My old 20g has an algae problem, and one of the decorations is heavily covered with "moss". I know the tank is well established, so is it recommended to use all the components to set it up again, or should I start fresh with new stuff? (It's still running, but without fish.) Again, if this has already been covered, can someone point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

FreshyFresh · Jun 8, 2014

Will you be able to keep any of the original tank contents in a plastic storage tote for the move? Keeping some pantyhose full of your old gravel in oxygenated tank water and keeping your existing hang-on-back filter media in that same tote/water would greatly speed-up the setup of a new tank. You can purchase battery operated air pumps and run an air stone in the tote.

In regards to your filtration question, yes, options have opened up big time over the years. I too started with bubbler/box filters and UGFs back in the late 1970s through the 1980s. In terms of hang-on-back (HOB) filters, the only one I care for today is AquaClear brand because of the rinse-able, reusable media they use.

Byron Amazonas · Jun 8, 2014

I'm moving soon and will be able to set up a larger tank. However, where I'm moving has very hard water, and the house I'm moving into has a water softener. While I don't really want it, I have been told it's a necessity to avoid costly damage from the hard water. I'm concerned, because as I understand it, water softeners add salt to the water, and this doesn't seem good for fish. Are my instincts right about this? And is this already covered somewhere else?

You are correct. Water softeners that work by adding sodium chloride (the "salt" we commonly think of, as in table salt and marine salt) to replace the salts of hard minerals such as calcium and magnesium, are not advisable for freshwater fish. It would be best to use water before it passes through the softener, or alternate water depending upon the GH of the pre-softener water and the intended fish species. If you are keeping hard water fish such as rift lake cichlids, livebearers, etc, the hard water is not likely to be any problem. And depending upon the GH, it may suit many other fish fine.

When I set up my first 20g, under gravel filters were the norm (or at least the easiest), but now they seem to be phased out. After replacing several air pumps, I did install a Whisper filter that hangs off the back of the tank as a back up. I eventually replaced it with a Petco brand equivalent, but I find I like it much better than the under gravel. Now I'm seeing submersible filters, bio wheel filters, canister filters, and the tank mounted variety I'm now familiar with. I'm curious if one is better than the rest, and where this might have already been discussed. I'm also seeing a lot of people using a combination of filters, so am naturally curious as to why.

Undergravel filters are what I grew up with too, and they can function very well if one remembers a few things. But all said, I would not use them as there are many options and filtration should be based upon the intended aquarium. Different fish species need more or less water movement, live plants are a factor, etc. In most cases, a single filter designed for the tank size and depending upon the intended fish/plants is more than sufficient. More filters does not equate to better filtration, or healthier fish.

Also, I've read a lot about cycling a new aquarium, and how it's beneficial to either add water from an established tank or use filtration or medium from an established tank to start the biological cycle in the new tank. My old 20g has an algae problem, and one of the decorations is heavily covered with "moss". I know the tank is well established, so is it recommended to use all the components to set it up again, or should I start fresh with new stuff? (It's still running, but without fish.) Again, if this has already been covered, can someone point me in the right direction?

Using existing tank water is not beneficial at all, except in acclimating the fish to the new water if it differs significantly. You can "seed" the new tank with filters or filter media or substrate from an existing tank (not washed), or use a good bacterial supplement. Live plants, especially fast growing such as floating, also help. You can also move over any decor unwashed; there is a host of bacteria living on any surface covered by water in the aquarium, so keeping wood, rock, decor moist/wet as in a plastic bag or a covered pail with some tank water sufficient so the objects do not dry out works well.

Byron.

Kannan Fodder · Jun 8, 2014

Thanks!

I had to move my fish already, so have a dedicated "aquarium use only" 5 gallon bucket, with a lid I drilled a hole in to accommodate a battery operated air pump. The pump is LOUD, but my fish survived the 7 hour move. (The fish are a large gold tinfoil barb, an ancient reedfish, and a clown pleco. The gambusia travelled in a smaller bucket, and went into a different tank.)

Moving the gravel and stump decoration will be no problem, nor will the HOB filter. I know the tank will have to be emptied, so do you advise just rinsing it out with clean water prior to setting it back up, or should I bleach it first? Also, I'm guessing the gravel should not be thoroughly rinsed prior to putting it back in? And the stump decoration has a heavy coat of what I'm guessing is "brush algae". I have no problem purchasing additional buckets or totes if necessary.

I'm pretty sure the HOB filter is rated for a 30 or 40g tank. I'd had so many problems with air pumps I went with "more than necessary" under the impression it would provide better oxygenation - which is what I believed was the purpose of air stones. When I set up the 46g (before moving my fish), I got a Marineland/Penguin bio-wheel 200, rated for tanks up to 50g. "Bio-wheel" was something new to me, but there were not a lot of filter options for a 46g, so bought the closest HOB available to what I'd been using. When I set up the 25g for the gambusia, I decided to try a submersible, and got a Fluval U2. (The newest 10g GloFish tank has a Nat Geo IFS20, but no fish yet.) The variety of filters is mostly trial and error to find what works best for my situation. I'm eventually going to upgrade to a much larger aquarium (75g or larger).

As to the water softener, I personally dislike them, and thought about shutting it off for tank setup/maintenance. Not sure how long I'll have to run the tap to clear out the salt, or if maybe using an outside faucet would be better. I have no problem setting aside a hose for aquarium use only, and someone mentioned a Python system to the laundry sink - which sounded a lot easier for large water changes.

I've seen some discussion on the frequency of water changes, and I usually vacuum the gravel every time I clean the tank, which usually freaks out the tinfoil barb and makes me feel like I'm terrorizing him. Which is why I always did monthly changes. I understand why weekly changes are recommended, especially with large fish. Do you recommend vacuuming the gravel weekly too? Also, with more frequent cleanings, do skittish fish ever get used to it?

Also, both the 25g and 46g have a lot of live plants, which makes it a little difficult to vacuum the gravel. I worked around the plants as best I could, but they seem to be magnets for fish waste. Is it recommended to vacuum the gravel in a planted tank? Or is "spot cleaning" the gravel better?

Again, thanks for the advice!

Byron Amazonas · Jun 8, 2014

Lots of questions; will offer what I can.

I know the tank will have to be empty, so do you advise just rinsing it out with clean water prior to setting it back up, or should I bleach it first?

Yes, water only, no bleach. Bleach should only be used if there is an issue requiring disinfection, and that is not the case here.

Also, I'm guessing the gravel should not be thoroughly rinsed prior to putting it back in?

When I last moved my tanks, I washed the gravel under the tap. I always prefer rinsing the substrate when I move tanks or re-set them.

And the stump decoration has a heavy coat of what I'm guessing is "brush algae".

I would clean the algae off. A manual-type toothbrush is ideal for this, cleaning algae off decor, rocks, wood, filter stems.I

I've seen some discussion on the frequency of water changes, and I usually vacuum the gravel every time I clean the tank, which usually freaks out the tinfoil barb and makes me feel like I'm terrorizing him. Which is why I always did monthly changes. I understand why weekly changes are recommended, especially with large fish. Do you recommend vacuuming the gravel weekly too? Also, with more frequent cleanings, do skittish fish ever get used to it? Also, both the 25g and 46g have a lot of live plants, which makes it a little difficult to vacuum the gravel. I worked around the plants as best I could, but they seem to be magnets for fish waste. Is it recommended to vacuum the gravel in a planted tank? Or is "spot cleaning" the gravel better? Again, thanks for the advice!

Nothing is as beneficial as regular weekly water changes, and a decent volume too. I do half my tanks, and have for 15+ years.

Vacuuming the substrate depends upon the tank. Most of us keep more fish rather than fewer, even in planted tanks, and a lot of detritus can accumulate. While this is certainly beneficial in several ways, one shouldn't go overboard. I rarely touch the sand in my 115g. I do vacuum into the fine gravel in my 90g, along the front where it is open. I do a run over the top of the sand in the 70g and 33g because these two tend to get more fine dust detritus and I like to keep it a bit cleaner for the corys and loaches. But digging down into the substrate should not be necessary in planted tanks, unless the fish load is more than the tank can handle or the fish are being over-fed.

Fish will often become used to the aquarist in their space. I remember years ago in my 33g the hatchetfish would always come over and nibble the hairs on my arm when I had my hand and half my arm submerged to work on the plants or something. Now my tanks are in a dedicated fish room, which means the fish only see me when I go in there, and even when this is several times a day, the lack of activity constantly around the tank in the room does tend to make the fish a bit more wary of movement outside the tank. I can't even see some of my corys and loaches unless I sit motionless in front of the tank for several minutes and they come out of hiding. But no matter, the benefit of regular water changes far outweighs the minor temporary stress to the fish, if there is any.

Byron.

Kannan Fodder · Jun 13, 2014

Thanks Byron. I will wait until I have a place to set up the 20g before moving it. Until then, I'm letting it continue running to keep the filter and media going.

I had to move my fish, because the person I asked to look after them flaked out and my 20 year old bumblebee cat died as a result of neglect. I set up a temp tank and had it running almost a week before moving my fish. The temp is a 46g bow, I went with live plants instead of plastic, and opted for a Marineland/Penguin 200 bio-wheel HOB with two filter cartridges. (Filter choices were very limited, and I went with the one that was closest to what I'm familiar with.) Bio-wheel is something new to me, and I'm also having problems with the filter cartridges - the size called for doesn't fit well, and seems to completely block the flow of water to the bio-wheel. I'm not really liking this filter, and am seriously considering a submersible Fluval U3.

My problem now is that the ammonia levels are out of control and off the charts. When I set up the tank, I asked the BigBoxPet store fish associate about water conditioner and start up bacteria. I was told to use API Stress Coat and Stress-Zyme, and that would be all I needed. I personally favor Prime, and have used it for years without any problems (in my old well established 20g and with bettas), but the associate almost freaked out when I picked up the bottle, claiming it "is very harsh" andmwould "burn" my fish. Anyway, I followed the start up dosing instructions on the API products, and let the tank run without fish for several days before moving mine.

The plants I used were Amazon Swords, java ferns, cardinal plants, dwarf anubias, red ludwigia, and dwarf hair grass. I did not initially realize the java ferns would rot if planted in the gravel, and the dwarf hair grass also did not do very well - and my tinfoil barb added to the problem by constantly pulling up the hair grass. I'm concerned that the plants are contributing to the excessive ammonia levels. I've changed out water, but just can't seem to bring the ammonia down - even with an ammonia detoxifier (Kordon AmQuel Plus). I did find a specialty LFS and talked to them, and they recommended Tetra SafeStart Plus to give the bio filter a boost, but it has NOT helped the ammonia level. (The tank is not overstocked with the current fish, and I have not added any plant fertilizer/food since the initial dose a day after setting up the tank.)

I just don't know how to bring down the ammonia levels without draining the tank and starting over. Did a full test today, ammonia was off the chart high, nitrite and nitrate were zero. Post water change the ammonia is still dangerously high.

Advice?

Byron Amazonas · Jun 13, 2014

How many and which species of fish are in this temp tank? And the tank is 46g, correct? Did you move over any filter media or decor (wood, rock, etc) kept wet and not washed?

Do you know the pH of the tank water?

The Tetra SafeStart is a good bacterial supplement, it quickens the establishment of nitrifying bacteria. As for Prime, while I personally will not use this it is something I tend to suggest in a new setup as it detoxifies ammonia (permanently, into ammonium) and nitrite and nitrate temporarily (for about 24-36 hours, after which these will turn back to the toxic form) so with daily water changes if nitrite and nitrate show this can help until the tank is cycled. But with live plants, some fast growing like floating, this should not matter.

On the ammonia, if you are using AmQuel this is not an issue. This product, like most (but not all) ammonia detoxifiers, changes txoic ammonia into basically harmless ammonium. Plants and bacteria take up ammonia/ammonium equally. Tests like the API will read ammoniua/ammonium as "ammonia," so don't let that bother you. I asked about the pH because in acidic water ammonia automatically changes mainly to ammonium on its own. The bacterial supplement frequently increazse ammonia initially, but again as it is here ammonium I wouldn't worry. The SafeStart will benefit long-term.

Are the fish showing any signs of ammonia [poisoning? Very rapid respiration, remaining near the surface, flashing on objects? These symptoms can be other things too, but it is something to go by.

Byron.

Kannan Fodder · Jun 13, 2014

The fish aren't flashing, but my 20 year old reedfish is acting very strange. It appears to be disoriented, makes mad dashes to the surface to gulp air, but when swimming back down, it flips over and writhes around upside down. It is also coiling up and sitting in a coil, which is something I've never seen it do before. None of the other fish are acting weird.

The tank is a 46g bow, with a Marineland 3 strip LED hood. The fish in the tank are a large (7-8") tinfoil barb, my ancient reedfish, a clown pleco, 4 Denison's barbs, 2 horsefaced loaches, 2 very small Asain bumblebee cats, a small bichir, and a 6-7" dragonfish/violet goby. I added up everything, generously rounding up, and still came up well under the "one inch of fish per gallon" rule. Everyone is eating well too, and up until yesterday, my reedfish was fine. Everything in the tank is brand new, as it was an emergency move, and wanted the temp tank set up before moving my fish. (The fish I moved are the tinfoil, reedfish, and pleco.)

I have an API master test kit - ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH and high PH. Ammonia is off the chart, nitrite/nitrate 0 ppm, and the PH is somewhere around 7.5 - I used both PH tests, and neither one reads very accurately.

I did a partial water change a week ago when the LFS asked for a water sample and found very high ammonia. I purchased the test kit that day too, changed out several 5g buckets, and then added SafeStart after the new water. A couple days later, I tested the ammonia again and it was still very high. That's when LFS recommended AmQuel, and it did noticibly drop the ammonia reading on the post dose test. Yesterday the ammonia was excessive (8 ppm), so I changed more water, vacuumed the gravel to remove detritus, and trimmed some dead/dying leaves off the Amazon swords. Even moved a couple decorations to vacuum under them. I also changed the filter pads because they are the one piece carbon/sponge type.

Have not tested this morning, but my reedfish is still acting weird and listless. Everyone else is acting normal.

Kannan Fodder · Jun 13, 2014

Update, ammonia "down" to 4 ppm (I used Prime to remove the chloramines), no reading on nitrites. Haven't tested nitrates yet. Reedfish still acting strange, everyone else is fine.

On the 25g community, the readings are exactly opposite - no ammonia and high nitrite. This tank has more fish, so don't know if that sped up the cycle.

Byron Amazonas · Jun 14, 2014

The reedfish is most likely showing the effects of ammonia and I would say will not likely recover. This is one problem with ammonia or nitrite being above zero; some fish appear to live through it, but permanent internal damage can still have been done and this may lead to premature death or other illness sooner or later.

The Prime is changing ammonia to ammonium, so again this is not directly harmful at this stage. Keep monitoring, doing water changes, use the bacterial supplement.

Byron.


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