Freshwater tank issues

Lillove1800 · Jul 10, 2014

First, I apologize because this is going to be a bit of a lengthy post. Second, I'm extremely new to fish so I apologize for that as well. Moving on to the posting reason, on the 9th I was given a fully stocked fish tank that a friend no longer wanted to deal with. They started the tank on the 7th and stocked it on the 8th. In the reading I've done since getting the tank obviously that wasn't the best thing to do. But since I have no other cycled tank to put the fish in I'm not sure what I can do to minimize fish loss. I'm using Fluval Biological Enhancer, as well as Stress Coat according to the directions and when I do water changes. The tank is also infected with Ich...Now to give details:

20 gallon square tank
2 marineland penguin 150 filters
1 air stone for added O2 given the tank has Ich
1 heater

Stock:

4 emerald corys
8 veiled angelfish (roughly dime sized but smaller then a quarter)
6 dwarf gourami
7 cherry barbs (one does appear to be experiencing difficulty so this may become six sadly)
6 glo fish danio
6 blood fin tetras
1 male betta fish
3 plants (not sure what they are they just look like round balls made of moss and he didn't remember what they were called)

What I've done thus far:
Treating for Ich with 83 degree water temp, and 1 tsp aquarium salt per gallon.
Purchased the second filter, micro filter, and API master test kit. Readings are as follows.

Before second 25% water change:

pH 7.6 or. 8.4(I used both the pH and High range pH test those were the numbers)
0 nitrite
0 nitrate
4 ppm ammonia

1 hour after second change:

pH 8.4 or 7.6
0 nitrate
0 nitrite
2 ppm ammonia
gH 150
kH 120

Can I/should I perform another water change (planning to run out and get some ammo-lock and pH softener) is there anything else I can do to keep these fish from dying??? Each time I perform a water change I do add back the salt for Ich but won't the removal of the water and re-addition of the salt have an effect? Or do I simply need to risk it in order to try and preserve the fish?
Any help or suggestions would be welcome!!

DLV082 · Jul 10, 2014

Other's will chime in with further info I am sure, but keeping up the water changes and checking your water quality is a must if you hope to keep any of your fish alive during the cycling period.

Another thought if you know anyone that has an established fish tank you could ask for some filter medium from their tank as that will have some beneficial bacteria to add to your tank and hopefully speed up the cycling process.

Also you might try searching the site for cycling information I am sure you will find some (Fish in) cycling tips. Good Luck.

Lillove1800 · Jul 10, 2014

DLV082 said:
Other's will chime in with further info I am sure, but keeping up the water changes and checking your water quality is a must if you hope to keep any of your fish alive during the cycling period.

Another thought if you know anyone that has an established fish tank you could ask for some filter medium from their tank as that will have some beneficial bacteria to add to your tank and hopefully speed up the cycling process.

Also you might try searching the site for cycling information I am sure you will find some (Fish in) cycling tips. Good Luck.

Thanks, I'm checking the tank every couple hours and performing water changes usually because of e ammonia. I went ahead and did a third one a few minutes ago because the ammonia spiked up to 4 ppm again. If nothing else at least 2 is less than 4. Would adding carbon be of any help? I am reading up on cycling with fish in, but I'm also having to deal with the ich issue. This tank seems doomed (hence why he probably gave it to me :laugh

. I've been asking around but no one else I personally know has a tank I could see from sadly. But I'm still hopeful the fish will make it!

Byron Amazonas · Jul 10, 2014

The main issue here is getting the tank cycled to save the fish, and dealing with ich to also save the fish.

Do not mess with the pH, this will only cause more trouble and stress on the fish and increase ich (which is due to severe stress). Use one test, and select the one appropriate for the tap water pH range, so it will be consistent and reliable.

There is also significant incompatibility (not your causing, understood) in the mix of species, and way too many fish for a 20g (also not your causing) but assuming the fish are still small we can deal with these issues later. Main thing is to save them now.

Cycling. Ammonia is the first stage (nitrite the second), and the best way to deal with this is to use a conditioner that detoxifies ammonia. Ammo-lock will also work, though with the expected nitrite rise this will not be sufficient so it may be best to get a different water conditioner now. Stress Coat does not include this step, so keep it for later. At this stage I would suggest either Seachem's Prime or Aquarium Solutions' Ultimate. These also detoxify nitrite which is going to be the next issue in the cycling, so might as well get one of these and stay with it until the tank is cycled. I'm not aware of other conditioners that handle nitrite, but there are some that will deal with ammonia only, so I suggest one of these mentioned.

I would also use a bacterial supplement, which is what Fluval Biological Enhancer is intended to be. I have no direct experience with this one, but it cannot hurt, so use it as directed on the label. This should help to get the nitrifying bacteria established faster. If you can get it, a product called Dr. Tim's One and Only will cycle immediately, according to Dr. Hovanec and tests have proven it seems to. It certainly cannot hurt, so why not?

To the ich. Raising the temp as you have done speeds up the ich cycle. If you raise it above 86F some maintain this alone will cure the fish. There is certainly scientific evidence that most strains of ich are unable to reproduce above 85F, so clearly this can work sometimes. The heat must be maintained for 10 days. The Emerald corys won't like this, but they also won't like salt. Salt needs to be sufficient to work, and most suggest 1, 2 or even 3 teaspoons of sodium chloride (common salt or aquarium salt, but not marine or cichlid salts) per gallon. However, I must caution that this might well end the corys, and tetra. I've never used salt and won't, this is just my opinion. I do use CopperSafe with the higher heat (low 80's F), observing the fish for any signs of difficulty and doing a water change and/or lowering the heat depending.

Byron.

Lillove1800 · Jul 10, 2014

Thank you for those suggestions!! I only knew of ammo-lock, so you've given me some other options for helping with the ammonia. I just walked through the store picking up anything that looked even remotely like it might be useful to be honest. After this I can go back and select more carefully now that I know what I'm looking for.

For the ich I've been using the one tsp of salt and considering how many times I've changed the water and had to re-add it the Cory's do seem to be handling it rather well -fingers crossed-. On the whole (I don't want to jinx anything) aside from most of the fish staying mostly near the bottom unless I feed them (which has been every other day thus far) they seem to be okay. They certainly eat well! After seeing how they tolerate it I was going to increase to 2 tsp per gallon tomorrow since I've cut the full dose for the tank into quarters to make it gradual and not shock them with a sudden salinity.

I didn't add anything for pH but after my third water change of the day it did drop to 8.2 from the 8.4, the ammonia is still high between 1-2 ppm. But I'm hoping I can find something at Walmart that might help bring it down till I can go into the city and get something better from an actual pet store tomorrow.

On a side note the best thing so far is the largest tank in the fish is actually the betta. All the others are under one inch. So I'm hoping the smaller size will help overcome the fact that the tank was so overstocked.

Would adding more plants be in any way beneficial? I'd really like to save these fish if at all possible (he at least picked some truly pretty ones) so if I have to buy an entire garden and stuff it in there I'll do it:laugh:.

FreshyFresh · Jul 10, 2014

Wait.. WHAT?

Someone set the tank up on the 7th. Stocked it on the 8th and already decided they didn't want to deal with it by the 9th?

I commend them on their patience and perseverance!

I would honestly re-home all but maybe a few blood-fin tetras to do a fish-in cycle with frequent water param measuring and water changes of course.

Lillove1800 · Jul 10, 2014

FreshyFresh said:
Wait.. WHAT?

Someone set the tank up on the 7th. Stocked it on the 8th and already decided they didn't want to deal with it by the 9th?

I commend them on their patience and perseverance!

I would honestly re-home all but maybe a few blood-fin tetras to do a fish-in cycle with frequent water param measuring and water changes of course.

I get the feeling it was very much an impulse buy, and then when the tank obviously ran into trouble (there were actually more fish in the tank according to what he told me, around 7-8 small fish of another kind)he decided it was a hassle and passed it on to me. If they survive I'll buy a larger tank (hoping a 100 gallon would be okay) but seeing as the tank was already infected with ich when I got it (two of the gouramis are displaying the white dots thus far) I'd feel like a cheat for fobbing them off on someone else and make treating them their problem. Especially since I don't know anyone who actually has an established tank. As an update I made an emergency trip to Walmart, they didn't have prime or the others but they did have ammonia clear tablets which did suffice to bring it down till I can go to the fish store tomorrow. I also added a second air stone on a 70 gallon air pump to up the air flow. After re-checking the tank numbers I have the following:

pH 7.4
ammonia 1 ppm (still high but hopefully the little guys can take it till the store opens at 9)
nitrite 0
nitrate 0

I also added the second 5 tsp of salt and so far they seem to be tolerating. In fact as soon as the ammonia tabs had a chance to circulate there was much more activity in the tank. I'm guardedly hopeful there will be no deaths while I sleep. The cherry barbs and danios keep darting through the filter current at the surface like they're playing, is this a good sign or abnormal behavior?

Rbishop · Jul 11, 2014

Barbs and danios are active fish and are often seen darting around the tank and playing. You seem to be well on your way to getting things under control. Good job! I usually just use the 2 tsp per gallon of common table salt along with the high heat. With the life cycly of ich, it will always appear to get worse before it gets better. Keep that salt/heat combo going for a good 7-8 days after all visible signs of ich have gone, and that added O2 for the high heat. You can actually feed very light during this period and that should help ease the ammonia a bit.

Byron Amazonas · Jul 11, 2014

On the whole (I don't want to jinx anything) aside from most of the fish staying mostly near the bottom unless I feed them (which has been every other day thus far) they seem to be okay. They certainly eat well! After seeing how they tolerate it I was going to increase to 2 tsp per gallon tomorrow since I've cut the full dose for the tank into quarters to make it gradual and not shock them with a sudden salinity.

On feeding, go sparingly; the more food entering the tank, the more ammonia will result. Once a day with a light feeding is max. Make sure you use some upper food (flake, pellet, i.e., floating) and a sinking food for the corys. If they don't seem to get it, feed them after darkness (complete) as they are nocturnal.

OK with salt, and correct to be gradual. The change in salinity is also problematic for all fish so it cannot be sudden. Each water change should have salt and conditioner and bacterial supplement added.

I didn't add anything for pH but after my third water change of the day it did drop to 8.2 from the 8.4, the ammonia is still high between 1-2 ppm. But I'm hoping I can find something at Walmart that might help bring it down till I can go into the city and get something better from an actual pet store tomorrow.

I didn't explain it previously as this is not the issue now, but please, do not go messing with the pH. The pH is tied closely to GH and KH, and previously you gave numbers showing that the KH which is carbonate hardness or Alkalinity is high. This has no direct impact on fish, but it does act to "buffer" pH, preventing it from changing. Adding any of these pH lowering chemicals means the pH will immediately lower, but over the next several hours rise back again due to the buffering. This will continue to occur, until the point when you overload the buffering capacity and it can very suddenly crash. The fish usually do not live through all this. And even if they did, the constant fluctuation in pH is causing internal issues and stress which again is only going to worsen the whole thing. Leaved GH and pH alone until all this is fixed. And even then it may not be necessary. Which pH test are you using now? Remember to stay with one to get reliable readings. A pH in the 7's is not going to be problematic for the fish mentioned.

Would adding more plants be in any way beneficial? I'd really like to save these fish if at all possible (he at least picked some truly pretty ones) so if I have to buy an entire garden and stuff it in there I'll do it.

Yes, plants are beneficial in several ways. But at this juncture, no. I frequently suggest plants in cycling, but these higher temps can affect some plants, and certainly the salt does. And we need to consider the light and nutrients. Again, wait until things are settled. You don't need more decaying plant matter adding to the organics and ammonia.

Byron.

Lillove1800 · Jul 11, 2014

Byron Amazonas said:
On feeding, go sparingly; the more food entering the tank, the more ammonia will result. Once a day with a light feeding is max. Make sure you use some upper food (flake, pellet, i.e., floating) and a sinking food for the corys. If they don't seem to get it, feed them after darkness (complete) as they are nocturnal.

OK with salt, and correct to be gradual. The change in salinity is also problematic for all fish so it cannot be sudden. Each water change should have salt and conditioner and bacterial supplement added.

I didn't explain it previously as this is not the issue now, but please, do not go messing with the pH. The pH is tied closely to GH and KH, and previously you gave numbers showing that the KH which is carbonate hardness or Alkalinity is high. This has no direct impact on fish, but it does act to "buffer" pH, preventing it from changing. Adding any of these pH lowering chemicals means the pH will immediately lower, but over the next several hours rise back again due to the buffering. This will continue to occur, until the point when you overload the buffering capacity and it can very suddenly crash. The fish usually do not live through all this. And even if they did, the constant fluctuation in pH is causing internal issues and stress which again is only going to worsen the whole thing. Leaved GH and pH alone until all this is fixed. And even then it may not be necessary. Which pH test are you using now? Remember to stay with one to get reliable readings. A pH in the 7's is not going to be problematic for the fish mentioned.

Yes, plants are beneficial in several ways. But at this juncture, no. I frequently suggest plants in cycling, but these higher temps can affect some plants, and certainly the salt does. And we need to consider the light and nutrients. Again, wait until things are settled. You don't need more decaying plant matter adding to the organics and ammonia.

Byron.

Thank you Bryon so much for all your advice! I did nothing to the pH and when I tested this morning it had remained at 7.4 and is still there following a water change and a few hours of allowing the new water to cycle. I did get some prime this morning after doing the first water change. Tank readings were:

ammonia .25 ppm
pH 7.4
nirite 0-.25 ppm I have the API master kit and it's just faintly purple in the blue
nitrate 2 ppm this is also just faintly orange but I'd rather assume it's higher than zero then assume it's zero and be wrong

Following those I did the water change, added the dosage on the Prime bottle, bacteria (I noticed with the Fluval that adding it straight into the filter seems to be the most useful), as well as a water conditioner. Still waiting while it filters to re-check the numbers. Also added six tsp of aquarium salt and the tank temp is at the 86 degree mark and so far they all seem to be okay. I did feed them (mix of pellets and flake) but only what they could consume in about 30 seconds. The moss plant things in the tank (look like fuzzy green balls) seem to actually be growing quickly. They were pretty small like golf ball size when I took the tank in, now one is about the size of a tennis ball? I also noticed that in the few hours I spent sleeping (I tested the tank last at around 1am and woke up at 8am and immediately tested the tank which are what's given above). So it does seem using the bacteria products is actually helping to filter the ammonia, not much but at least it's showing that there's bacteria growing. By the end of today (around midnight to maintain adding salt gradually there should be a total of 20 tsp for the entire 29 gallons in the tank), still only have two of the gouramis showing visible signs of ich and they all ate extremely well.

Edit: while I was getting the prime I also picked up yet another air pump and stone to give even more oxygen into the tank. They seem to be moving a bit more, though the angels are grouping at the top looking for food. :laugh:


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