my rockscaping / question on cycling

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Duckie

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Mar 14, 2015
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I am planning on setting up a 75 gallon SW tank which has been previously (about 9 years) a FW. There is so much different and conflicting information out there that I still get confused about it all when I think about it. We decided to start out with dry aragonite sand (80 lbs) and some dry rock (50lbs). The sand and rocks arrived today. Once everything else is here and the sump is built and everything is connected it will time to cycle this new tank. Thinking of filling it with saltwater, start it running, and then go get a cup or two of fresh live sand and a few pieces of fully cured live rock from my store in town to put in tank. Then start the cycle with a frozen shrimp, no light in DT, refugium with lights on their schedule (on from 6pm to 6am, off during the day). Then wait for the tank to cycle which I hope will be done within 8 weeks from the start, but if it will take longer it will just take longer. Once I see a spike in ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate and everything went back to zero, it will be time to slowly add some fish and later down the road some coral. One thing I really don't understand yet is the source of ammonia: After I take out the shrimp once the ammonia levels down, do I need to keep "feeding" the tank every few days with some fish food to keep the ammonia going, or will the bacteria that break down the ammonia be okay for the weeks after until the nitrate goes down? ? Or do I just leave the shrimp in there until it is completely gone and not worry about another source of ammonia?

Anyway, here is my progress so far (the lights are still the old hood, will need to get brighter ones that will support coral, probably an led strip) - layed the rocks out for a quick look. This way I can still rearange things if for some reason we want it too look different. Not planning on changing anything once the water is added.
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Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

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fsn77

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Feb 22, 2006
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I prefer to use liquid ammonia to cycle a tank (you have to buy janitorial strength now to get away from any harmful additives collectively labeled surfactants) , but there's plenty of folks that still use a piece of shrimp. It should not take anywhere near 8 weeks to cycle though if you do add cured live rock (keep it as wet as possible during transport) and actual live sand (not bagged live sand), unless the piece of shrimp simply decays that slowly for you. After you add your ammonia source, can measure the ammonia level you're targeting, then end up with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and an expected amount of nitrate, the tank is cycled. The bacteria that break down nitrate work very slowly... very, very slowly... to the point that I would not count on them for nitrate removal, particularly in a newly set up tank. The macroalgae in your refugium will do far more for you in terms of nutrient removal.

That said, the bacteria performing the nitrogen cycle for you can start to die off if left for extended periods of time without an ammonia source. However, I would not expect that to happen in any significant fashion over the course of a couple weeks, unless some drastic change happens to the tank (very large and rapid spike or drop in salinity, temperature, etc.) The bacteria are pretty resilient.

When it comes time to add your fish, do so in moderation. Please remember that the bacteria working the nitrogen cycle exist in an equilibrium of sorts and need time to adjust to changes in the bioload added to the tank. Even in an established tank, too many new additions can cause a mini-cycle while the bacteria population increases to handle the new bioload. Short version -- please don't add 5 or 10 fish to your 75g all at once. If you have a list of fish that you know you want, I'd suggest adding the most peaceful / least territorial fish first and save any territorial fish as later / last additions.

When stacking your rock, keep this in mind... Any digging goby can topple over your rockwork if it is not stacked to be very stable. Some people go as far as attaching their rocks together so they cannot be knocked over. Even larger snails can act like a bulldozer and knock over smaller pieces of rock that may be near the top of your rockwork. Urchins are another critter to keep in mind in that regard as well.
 

Duckie

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Thank you. The live rock and sand will stay wet, actually it will stay submerged in water - I will take a bucket with me to my LFS and pick a few pieces out of the big tank that has nothing but live rock in it.

I have heard different pros and cons shrimp vs pure ammonia. I like the idea that the shrimp is already infested with the right bacteria, but then so should the live rock for seeding? Still have time to check out pure ammonia as a less smelly alternative. I am not counting on bacteria to do nitrate removal, so I consider the refugium as part of the filter and want it running while the tank is still cycling. You are saying that eventually there will be a big enough bacteria colony to eat the nitrate? Or you mean that I always need the refugium to assist with that?

Good to hear that my estimate of 8 weeks is too long and that I may be able to stock with fish sooner. :)
 

fsn77

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Feb 22, 2006
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Yes, the live rock you add will have all of the types of bacteria you need to seed your tank to run the nitrogen cycle.

In the vast majority of tanks, the bacteria that break down nitrate will never be present in large enough numbers to eliminate nitrates. Conditions in our tanks are not favorable for them to populate that heavily unless you get into something like vodka dosing or using bio-pellets. Your refugium will always be a major player in nutrient removal.

If it was me, I would not add any macroalgae to your refugium until AFTER you tank cycles, as the macroalgae can more easily use the ammonia than it can nitrate. You don't want the macroalgae to out compete the bacteria for the ammonia, which could really limit the bacteria's ability to populate your tank (and give a false indication that your tank has cycled). I'd let the bacteria do their thing, then once you only have nitrate, add the macroalgae.
 

Duckie

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Interesting about the ammonia and microalgae fighting for it. How does that work after the cycle is done? Wouldn't the algae still compete for the ammonia? Maybe once established the BB colony doesn't give the algae a chance to eat any of the ammonia?
 

fsn77

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It's not so much that the macroalgae consumes ammonia more quickly than the bacteria will, just that the macroalgae can more easily consume ammonia than it can nitrate. In a cycling tank where there's ammonia and almost no nitrate, the macroalgae will happily use the ammonia, leaving less for the bacteria to use in becoming established in large enough numbers to support the nitrogen cycle in your tank. Once a tank is cycled, normal amounts of ammonia are consumed essentially as quickly as they are produced, with nitrate levels tending to persist, which is what the macroalgae will utilize most often.
 

Duckie

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Mar 14, 2015
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Got it, thank you. I will wait until nitrites went up and down and add the algae then.

Little progress on the tank: I successfully tested my plumbing of the overflow box and return pump. Who would have guessed that ID and OD of the hose made such a big difference. I had ordered the wrong hose for the overflow (1" OD instead of 1" ID). Got a new 1" ID hose, this time around a spa flex pvc instead of vinyl tubing. With the bulkhead in hand it suddenly made no sense any more to try the barbed fitting, let alone glueing in a short piece of straight piece of pvc, then a adapter slip to barb and then attach a hose. So the hose got glued in directly into the bulkhead without restlicting any flow. :)
 

msouth468

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Got it, thank you. I will wait until nitrites went up and down and add the algae then.

Little progress on the tank: I successfully tested my plumbing of the overflow box and return pump. Who would have guessed that ID and OD of the hose made such a big difference. I had ordered the wrong hose for the overflow (1" OD instead of 1" ID). Got a new 1" ID hose, this time around a spa flex pvc instead of vinyl tubing. With the bulkhead in hand it suddenly made no sense any more to try the barbed fitting, let alone glueing in a short piece of straight piece of pvc, then a adapter slip to barb and then attach a hose. So the hose got glued in directly into the bulkhead without restlicting any flow. :)
Get some pics up. I want to see the tank!!!!

Sent from my SM-G900V using MonsterAquariaNetwork App
 

Duckie

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Mar 14, 2015
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Get some pics up. I want to see the tank!!!!

Sent from my SM-G900V using MonsterAquariaNetwork App
The tank itself hasn't changed much since the first pictures. Only difference is the sand (dry aragonite, 80#) that is now on the bottom. My 30 gal tank (nobody has it, had to be ordered) is due to arrive this week, so is the skimmer. Once I got both it is time to fit and silicone the baffles in to build the refugium that will also house the skimmer. Maybe this weekend it is time to add water.
 

msouth468

Fighting for the little guy
Nov 29, 2005
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couchpotatodx.proboards66.com
No excuses...just pics.

Sent from my SM-G900V using MonsterAquariaNetwork App
 
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