Long Winded Newbie w/ Questions

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abwahl

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May 26, 2004
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Hello. I am a newbie to this board and a newbie to the world of fish wrangling. I must say, right from the start, this site appears to be a wonderful resource and I'm so glad I found all of you.

I went to a carnival with my 6 year old daughter a while back. I promised her she could play one game. As it started to rain and we were heading for the exit, she reminded me of this promise as we approached the Win a Fish booth. I paid the $1 for the 8 balls thinking that there was no way she'd win. Sure enough...plop...YOU WIN. What do you win? A lesson in death. Congratulations! Our funeral was brief, but tearful, as "Put" was lowered into the earth the following rainy afternoon.

On our way home we went to our town's little mini Walmart and found meager beginnings of a home & some Betta food (lol..now I know what that means). I wanted to wait until the next day when I'd be in the larger town nearby to get what we'd really need. I didn't think fish could be happy in a bowl of water with nothing else, but I didn't even get 24 hours. I let the water sit out for a while, but not nearly long enough to declorinate. I know why he died now...well at least know of another 30 reasons he could have died. It would have been a miracle for him to survive. I am just happy that he died in the adoration of a little girl who will morn him unlike the other poor little guys.

This brings me here because the few hours we had the live little guy at our house I enjoyed him very much. When I thought he was a goldfish (I now don't think he looks like one), I bought a 10 gallon tank. I decided that this is a hobby which could be very rewarding. My daugther, while young, is calm and intelligent. She has established a firm method of completing her daily chores (emptying cat box, feeding cat, getting mail). I would, naturally, be the 'tank master', but she could definitely particpate, then take over some of the less technical tasks as she gets older. This makes the possiblilty of participating in this hobby even more rewarding.

Researching the web, I quickly found out that even if he had been a goldfish, I didn't get the correct tank (although 2 different guys at the local Petco told me that the 5 gal. tanks were large enough...errrr). So, we're going to aim for smaller fish. I've scoured these posts, but a few questions remain. I want to do this the right way from the very first step. We're going freshwater, for sure. I'll save saltwater for my retirement years.

Must water be dechlorinated outside of the tank? Should I fill a clean bucket with water to let it air out, or is it o.k. to fill the tank with water and let the water sit for a few days. If not, how do you all accomplish this? Many small buckets? One big one? Is that too heavy?

I plan to do a fishless cycle. Once complete, I have read contradicting information on how to get the fish into the tank. I've read that you should put the fish in the tank still in the bag for a while (5-15 minutes), then put small amounts of the tank water into the bag every few minutes, then slowly let him go. The contradiction was being told to not allow any of the store tank water into my tank, but I've read to not use a net as it is traumatic and can harm certain fish. However, I don't want to release any of the shop tank water into my tank after a 4 week cycle (or longer...who knows how we'll do out of the gates), and have to start all over, or hurt the fish.

I may possibly be able to get some media from an established tank. I just found out today that one of my girlfriends has a step-fish. Her hubby has kept lion fish, and has what she called a 'huge, fat, pig of a sucker fish.' Should I be concerned if the pH of his tank is different than mine should be (don't know yet, haven't firmly decided on what we'll have)? And how much will I need? A cup, a half a cup?

I found out that there is an aquatics shop near here, so I will be visiting there soon. I was so disappointed to find out that the people at Petco gave me incorrect information. I would have been devastated to know I'd stunted some poor goldfish, and wouldn't have enjoyed the high level of poo they produce. I would have been cleaning that 5 gal. tank every day! I hope the specialty store is more responsible, but I will probably be getting most of my information here (I've learned so much the past few days). I will probably write only if we have questions or problems, so you all won't have to worry about another book post from me! I've been able to have many of my questions answered by searching the posts, but if anyone could recommend a solid, thorough set up guide, I would appreciate a link.

Wish us luck!
 

brendanh

Fishmaster Flash
Must water be dechlorinated outside of the tank? Should I fill a clean bucket with water to let it air out, or is it o.k. to fill the tank with water and let the water sit for a few days. If not, how do you all accomplish this? Many small buckets? One big one? Is that too heavy?
It doesn't matter how you dechlorinate the water if there aren't any fish or bacteria in the tank yet. If you use that esablished media right away, the chlorine will zap all of the beneficial bacteria contained therein. I went to walmart and bought three 5 gallon buckets for $2.25 each, and use them for water changes, fish holding, etc. They're usually next to the paint. I fill one bucket with the amount of wat er I wish to change (usually its less than 5 gal, and for your 10 gallon that's a safe bet too) and treat it with Amquel. It's crucial to check if your water supply uses chloramine (chlorine bound to ammonia) or chlorine. You can let chlorine offgas by exposing it to air for 24 hours. Chloramine doesn't offgas so you need some Amquel or equivalent to neutralize the chlorine and bind the ammonia to ammonium. As far as weight, a gallon of water weighs 8 lbs. So your 5 gallon bucks it like one cumbersome 40 lb dumbbell. Not recommended for little girls or bad backs :D . Alternatives would be smaller buckets or milk jugs, but you have to keep a mess of them.

I plan to do a fishless cycle. Once complete, I have read contradicting information on how to get the fish into the tank. I've read that you should put the fish in the tank still in the bag for a while (5-15 minutes), then put small amounts of the tank water into the bag every few minutes, then slowly let him go. The contradiction was being told to not allow any of the store tank water into my tank, but I've read to not use a net as it is traumatic and can harm certain fish. However, I don't want to release any of the shop tank water into my tank after a 4 week cycle (or longer...who knows how we'll do out of the gates), and have to start all over, or hurt the fish.
If you're doing a fishless cycle, you're already doing your future fish well. Just float the bag to acclimate temperature, and pour the water in slowly as you said. Then net them and put them in there. A little netting won't hurt them any more than the ride home from the store did.

There's some debate out there, but I like to add "Cycle" to my tank (even if it's already been cycled) to double up on that beneficial bacteria when I add fish. You can't overdose, but if the fish pee too much, then you've certainly underdosed.

Good luck!
 

abwahl

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May 26, 2004
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thanks...bit more info

Thanks for the quick response. I wanted to add that this is something we are going to take very slowly. The idea was thrust upon us, but I have been looking for something just like this to add to my family. I'm beginning to think that I might even wait about a month and buy a larger tank, all the while cycling the smaller tank to get used to things while I keep reading. I think one of my favorite aspects of this hobby will be how much information there is to read! Who da thunk! This way I'll have a quarantine tank all ready to go and get to practice the chemistry of it first. And heck, even a tank with nothing in it but a little colored gravel and a plastic plant can be pretty. Then I'll justify spending more money when I know I can do this, and have much more ease with making a stable home and have more options for fish.

I do not yet have the desire to get a large amount and variety of fish. So, if I go for the 29 gal tank, I plan for things to be very simple, but will research for one nice, pretty, relaxing school fish, and one complementary (helpful) type fish. This way I won't have to worry about competing needs too soon.

What I've purchased so far:

Marineland Bio-Wheel Aquarium Kit
Came with
10 gal tank
Penguin Mini wheel power filter
Tilt Up Safety Hood

Extra light bulbs

So far, I'm interested in tetras. I plan to narrow down my choices, then present them to my daughter and let her choose before seeing any pictures.

Man, I'm going to drive her nuts with the waiting. It will be like waiting for Santa to get here. But if we don't teach our kids patience, how will we ever hope for them to learn it?
 

silentskream

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May 16, 2004
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well first of all, i just want you to know that your experience is VERY common.
and please know that even if you had done everything correctly, chances are that fish would not have survived much longer. the conditions of some of those "win a fish" fish at carnivals is absolutely appalling. so dont be too hard on yourself for it. and we ALL appreciate the fact that you want to learn from your mistakes.

i know you said that the fish that your daughter won from the carnival was NOT a goldfish.. but that surprizes me. its very rare for places like that to let you win anything more expensive than a "common" or comet goldfish. the main reason for this is that small common/comet goldfish cost about 12 cents, while most other fish are at least 2 or 3 dollars. and carnival games usually take the cheapest route. (for example, if you pay a dollar to win a 25cent fish, they get more money than if you paid them a dollar to win a $3 fish)

the people at petco are (sadly) just relaying information. they've been told that a 5 gallon aquarium will hold a small goldfish (which it will) but they arent told that it will hold a small goldfish for a short period of time and eventually cause it to die. Beleive me, there are MANY of us here that are disgusted with the way Petco runs its stores.

Anyways, back to your immediate conscern:
1, as mentioned above, the first thing you need to do is condition the water. if you know there arent any chloramines in the water, then letting the water sit for 24 hours will be fine. HOWEVER. if you just want to be on the safe side, take one bucket (i actually use a 1 gallon milk jug that i made sure was thouroughly rinsed out) fill it with water, and add the appropriate amount of conditioner for 1 gallon of water (the person above suggested Amquel, which works just fine, any conditioner that gets rid of chloramines should be fine too) usually in the instructions it will say something like ten drops per gallon or 6 drops per gallon, it varys among brands. Do that ten times, and you have conditioned water. i still let it sit in the aquarium a while and kinda swish it around just so i know its mixed up. a lot of people think thats overkill, but it just makes me feel better.

2, filtration, but you already have that covered (thats what is so great about aquarium kits.. very good for beginners)

3, add your "seeded bacteria" and your first batch of ammonia ON THE SAME DAY. the bacteria will die very quickly after a day without ammonia. in a ten gallon tank, i imagine half a cup would be fine, just remember the more you use, the more you "jump start" your tank. its perfectly fine to use a full cup, or even to use the "seeded gravel" as the gravel for your tank (if the friend doesnt mind letting you keep it) a common suggestion (and a healthy one) is that you keep the gravel to a depth of about 13 or 12 an inch, not very deep at all, but MUCH easier to vaccuum (and much more difficult for fish waste to hide in)
ALSO: the PH of the tank that the gravel was found in shouldnt make any difference at all. i dont know much about lionheads, but as long as they're freshwater you should be fine.

for more info you're more than welcome to check out my website:
www.angelfire.com/nc2/Tastytracy/fish/fishpage.html
HOWEVER i'm still working on it, and i have a LOT to do, so PLEASE double check anything you see that you might have a question on, or that looks unfamiliar to you.


GOOD LUCK!!
 

happychem

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Dec 9, 2003
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First thing that jumps out at me is "extra light bulbs", I assume that this means you have an incandecent hood. If you've still got you receipt and can exchange it, spend the extra money on a kit with a fluorecent hood. Incandecent will do, but it pumps a ton of heat into your water. I bought a used 10g that came w/ incandecent and could not get the tank water below 80oF in the summer.

For seeding your tank, get some filter media, not gravel. Unless your friend uses and undergravel filter (UGF), there's comparatively little bacteria in the substrate. An even better idea is to help her clean out her tank. Bring a container with you. Vacuum good and deep, rinse out filter sponge, etc. Once you've collected a bucket of filthy brown looking water, decant off the clean stuff and bring the sludge or 'mulm' home and add that to your tank and filter. Tons of nitrifiers.

Next, if you're doing fishless, don't use Amquel. There's a link around in one of the stickies to the revised fishless cycling article. Basically, don't use a dechlorinator that binds ammonia. The safest bet, call your water company and ask them if they add chloramine, if they don't you're golden. While you're at it, ask them to send you a print up of the water report analysis. Knowing things like pH, KH (alkalinity), GH, phosphates, nitrates, etc. can be very useful down the road. Ultimately, you're going to have to do some tests yourself.

Get a good test kit. Hagen/Nutrafin has a good one, I've heard that Aquarium Pharmaceuticals has a good one too. Look for GH, KH, pH, NH3, NO2: you should be able to find one that comes with these together. NO3 you'll probably have to purchace seperately.

As a last point in this long winded post, don't worry about pH. People at the lfs may try to sell you on things like pH up or down or something to that effect. They'll only give you a headache and be worse for your fish in the long run.
 

tomm10

Prodigal Son
Oct 15, 2003
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Welcome to the hobby. Despite your rough beginnings it sounds like you are very much on the right path.

I agree with most of whats been said though I will offer another simpler idea regarding what happychem said about lights. Incandescants can definitely mess with temperature but there's no need to return the hood. Instead, get a screw in type compact flourescent bulb instead of the incandescant. They don't throw off anywhere near the amount of heat as a regular bulb and IMO give off a better light for aquarium viewing. As an added bonus, it will allow you to raise some plants in the future if you want.

One piece of advice would be to start making the rounds at fish shops now. Bring a pad and pen and write down the names of the fish that interest you and your daughter. This way you can come home and do a search for the fish on the internet and do a little research on them rather than trusting the LFS employees to steer you in the right direction. You'll have the time while your fishless cycling so you might as well take advantage of it.

When it comes to introducing fish to a tank I don't get too paranoid about letting some of the LFS tank water into my tank. Afterall, the fish was in it so how much s hould I worry about it. My method is to remove water from the bag with a baster (invaluable tool) and then replace it with an equal amount of my tank water. When its time to make the introduction, I remove a lot of the water from the bag and then just let the fish swim out. This way, by the time I let the fish out very little of the water in the bag is the original LFS water. Netting won't be too stressful on the fish either but I find it to be a giant pain to get a net big enough for the fish into the opening of the bags.

Tom
 

anonapersona

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Mar 7, 2003
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transferring fish

I sometimes dump the fish and fish store water into a bowl and add tank water to acclimate the fish. Then I pour almost all the water out into another bucket, but keep the fish and a bit of water in the bowl, dump that into the tank.

I have also on occasion matched temps by floating the bag, then simply netted out the fish to the tank. The longer the fish has been in the bag the more likely I am to do that. My water is both harder and of higher pH than the stores water and so mixing the higher pH water into an ammonia filled bag can be bad for the fish. Becasue my waer is harder, I know I can make the transfer fast and do no harm, though going the other way is more stressful.
 

lark

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Feb 8, 2004
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You already have the right idea and that is to take your time. Plan in advance what you want. Get the largest tank you can afford. If you do get another the ten will be fine for a hospital tank.
 

kikuchiyo

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May 9, 2004
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Floating's no good. Just stresses the fish out more. I would either put it and its bag water in a clean bucket and drip aquarium water in for an hour if the fish is not locally purchased or fragile, or simply put some chlorine remover and stress coat in the bag and the tank and net the little guy out if it is a hardier variety. The temperature change (especially if the water is a few degrees cooler for goldfish or warmer for tropicals) is less problematic than the build up of ammonia in the bag and the stress of visual stimuli. I think I made a longer post about this on this board or MFT. That is, of course, my humble opinion.
 

jacblades

klingon word for superior galactic
May 11, 2004
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you have learned a valuable lesson-PETCO IS BAD! (see my link)

Floating's no good.
what?!? i have never heard that before! i dont see how it could visually stress the fish. the fish is getting used to its surroundings (perhaps other fish) from the safety of its bag. please explain more. does anyone else agree with this?
 
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